Body of Kidnapped Menachem Stark Identified

Police have confirmed that Menachem Stark, whose Williamsburg kidnapping was reported on Friday was found dead in a Long Island dumpster. His brother, Yaakov Yosef Stark is the well known cantor, heard here, singing El Molei Rachamim on the 80th anniversary of the death of Yossele Rosenblatt. Menachem Stark, also known as Max Stark, was a major real estate developer and landlord embroiled in prolonged bankruptcy and default negotiations and lawsuits with creditors.

Update- 1/5/2013: See accounts in New York Post of Stark’s alleged financial scamming which left him with a long list of aggrieved enemies. Also includes allegations of sex abuse by Stark of a teenage girl.

63 thoughts on “Body of Kidnapped Menachem Stark Identified

  1. It is truly astonishing to read comments such as Miriam’s @ 8:01 pm (and corresponding comments that have been posted elsewhere). We are talking about a vile slumlord, loan shark and mega-scammer with (per Failed Messiah) a sealed arrest for forcible touching a young girl. Of course he deserved it!

  2. hey mark this is special for you-@nypost I didn’t want max killed so didn’t his kids, let’s see how your kids react when you are Murdered., now what do you say, would you like this to be your obituary when you die, i think not, so keep quiet

    • YL: I agree with you.

      Miriam: When a man chooses to be a pig his family necessarily pays part of the price for it. And of course it is horrible to be burned and suffocated, but Stark was a horrible person and his tenants had horrible home lives because of him. He got what he had coming and from everything I have read about him I hope he was burned before he was suffocated rather than afterward.

      • mark, i hope then when its your time g-d punishes you and you suffer too, i guess your’e really not a nice person to wish something so horrible, cause no matter what someone does, they dont deserve this!! and yerachmiel, im surprised you let this moron comment!!

    • It was a horrible and unjustifiable cruelty that was committed to Mr. Stark. It does seem that he was involved with some very shady and disreputable individuals. The evidence indicates that he was frantically trying to raise large sums of money before his abduction. Sad to say, but if those are the kinds of people with whom he did business, perhaps the outcome was not to be unexpected.

      • i understand that maybe he did some wrong things, but still this was not what he should have gotten, to be murdered for this is horrible and anyone that says he deserves this, is a moron!!

    • Could be. Also could be that the witness was intimidated and Hynes didn’t bother to consider or investigate the possibility. By an large, Hynes preferred to let Haredim do the intimidating and then he would kvetch, “What can I do; they are worse than the mafia?”

      • I’ve tried to remain out of he fray, but your ignorance and rank bias are so obvious that I couldn’t resist commenting. Stark’s “touching” case was in Manhattan, not Brooklyn. And, according to the report, it was dismissed fully and the city settled a lawsuit. So, is Cy Vance corrupt, too, along with the Corporation Counsel?? It never ends with you guys. Shameless, reckless defamation.

        • Spinner, it was a legitimate question as it was not public that the arrest occurred in Manhattan and by the way the word you are looking for is libel not defamation. Of course neither apply.

          But don’t worry the Hynes legacy of working with the fixers to protect the pedophiles will be front and center in yet one more case. Jerry Brauner, convicted pedophile, who should have been in jail, not on parole, was arrested again yesterday and charged with forcible touching, sexual abuse in the third degree and harassment in the second degree (physical contact). He is scheduled to be in court today.

  3. While clearly a crime was committed against this man, one which needs to be solved and the perpetrators punished for its commission, he’s no loss to the world outside Satmar. One less vicious slumlord to be dealt with. One less Satmar crook. One less source of bad publicity for Jews generally.

    • He’ll most likely be replaced by another vicious slumlord. The new owner might be Hasidic, MO, Secular.. Gentile, who knows? I would be happy if justice were served, and they were forced to treat their tenants properly. But I wouldn’t wish that death on most of them.

  4. Skepticalyid:

    It was indeed a horrible cruelty that was committed upon Max Stark, but whether it was unjustified is a matter of debate. This is a man who made his living by screwing people, and most of the people he screwed were residential tenants who as we all know have little recourse against a determined criminal. The Brooklyn landlord-tenant court is a joke and everyone knows it.

    This particular murder is – or should be – in a different category than your standard, garden-variety Mafia hit. As a rule, the Satmar (and many other Hasidic sects) simply do not consider secular laws and norms to be part of their moral/ethical code. They recognize the importance of such laws and norms – the Satmar are certainly not stupid, after all – but to them, a failure to provide heat and hot water to tenants, and a failure to get rid of rodents and insects in residential buildings is of the same moral and ethical importance as getting a parking ticket. And judgments of secular courts – for example, in the Weberman case – have no moral force. The only things that really matter to them are the opinions of their Satmar neighbors, the dictates of whichever Teitelbaum brother they happen to revere, and the decisions of such batei din as they happen to accept.

    If you are dealing with someone like Max Stark, you cannot be effective by using conventional secular measures. They don’t care what you think about them, they don’t care about our civil and criminal law, and they have nothing but contempt for anyone whose headgear does not compare to their own. You are forced to use extrajudicial means.

    It may well be that this is a Mafia hit and as we all know the Mafia does not use the civil law to collect debts. But, in a larger sense, the Max Starks of the world do not play by secular rules and they respond only to Mafia-type persuasions. So, it is no surprise that he died this way. And good riddance to him.

        • I don’t believe in capital punishment in all but a very few of the most extraordinary crimes (e.g., Eichman). So I of course am revolted by this kidnapping and cruel murder. I hope the culprits are caught and made to pay, big time. I feel for the suffering of those who loved him, particularly his children and others who are innocent of any of his alleged misconduct.

          However, in this and any other such investigation, the job is figuring out who had the motive to commit the murder. In his case, it sounds like the police concluded he had a lot of enemies because he ripped off a lot of people.

          Of course the NY Post was insensitive as was the detective they quoted. But insensitivity is not a crime of antisemitism. It is just the Post being what it is, a sensationalist tabloid.

          I fear the the over-reaction to this news story will further damage the credibility of the ultra orthodox community by conveying the impression that they care less about criminality than about not having it get serious media coverage.

  5. The question is who will benefit from cashing in on his life insurance policy. Probably the people who he owes money to. In relation to whether he ‘deserved’ what he got – I doubt it. Maybe he deserved to go to jail or to be bankrupted. Killed? – I don’t think so but in the Satmar world where intimidation is the ‘rule of law’, then those that intimidate other should expect to be intimidated themselves. I have no doubt that this hit was intended to be just as much a lesson to Stark himself as it was to the people surrounding him.

  6. He also saw a skull floating upon the water. Said he to it: Because you drowned others, you were drowned; and those who drowned you, will themselves be drowned.

  7. Friday morning I got the following whatsaap message from a friend that grew up in Williamsburg…..

    “C/p A popular millionaire businessman, a Satmar Hasid, was kidnapped from his Williamsburg office, according to police reports in New York. Brooklyn Police said that Menachem Stark was kidnapped by two assailants at 11:30 p.m. on Thursday. According to video surveillance, the two suspects were waiting outside Stark’s office, which is located in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn, jumped on him, threw him into a big white van, and drove away. Police said that numerous phone calls to Stark’s cellphone went unanswered.Due to the snowstorm, police are unable to efficiently search for the victim or the suspects. Police searched Stark’s office, where they were looking for clues.Stark is a strong supporter of the Satmar grand rabbi. Last week, the rabbi’s wife held a fundraiser at Stark’s home.”

    Slightly shaken, I went on the rest of the day without giving it a thought. You see, I don’t know Menachem Shtark. I’m not from Williamsburg, I don’t live in Brooklyn, I don’t even live in New York State. I’m also not Chasidick, and even had i joined them it certainly wouldn’t be to their Satmar brand….

    Surly it’ll work out fine, i must have figured…..

    Well it didn’t. And Saturday night, everyone was talking about the gruesome heinous crime….

    I was told his name was Menachem “Max” Shtark. Eager to get some details, I punched into my phone Max. Before I had a chance to put in the rest of his name, my phone suggested a contact I had saved some time ago… Menachem “Max” Shtark.

    Naturally I was thrown off and confused… “Hey, this seems to be him…. But how did he land in my contacts?!?!”

    Slowly a meeting I had with a stranger two years ago in a black SUV started coming back to me….

    I’m in the real estate management business, and an opportunity arose that was slightly different then what I had been doing. Naturally I was shopping around for tips and advice and meeting anyone and everyone that would shed light on this new market. One older person I met with, said that he could never have succeeded on his own. He was lucky to have a neighbor, a young entrepreneur who showed him all the ins and outs, and held his hand through every process. A very successful, generous, businessman, that refused to take a dime for his advice, but sincerely wanted him to succeed. His name, Menachem Shtark.

    This fellow I was meeting, by now himself in the business for a while, felt that he himself couldn’t help me. He said he doesn’t know how to run the business, all he knows is one phone number, Menachem’s.

    He suggested I too speak to Menachem. “Don’t worry that he doesn’t know you from Adam”, he said, “if he can, he’ll help as much as possible”. “I know him, he loves to help people. Here is his cell number and call him. Don’t think you’ll get thru the first time, though, he’s very busy. Leave a message and he’ll probably call you back. Just be persistent and you’ll get thru…”

    That night I made the call (to a total stranger!!), didn’t get thru, and I left a message. The next day I called again and he picked up. He remembered the message I left, and apologized for not having time to return my call.

    I explained him what I was looking into, and after asking a few questions, he immediately started making suggestions. I asked him if I can come meet him personally. He said “sure you can come, but what for? I’ll help if I can in any way!! When I told him is important to me to meet in person, he had no problem with it. He didn’t, however, want me to schlep to his office in Williamsburg just for him. He told me he was scheduled to be in Flatbush by his attorney and we can meet there. We made up to be in touch for the exact date and time. Only after he finished talking to me, a stanger for the first time in his life, did he go back to attend to the people coming into his office to ask him questions, and the phones ringing off the hook…

    We spoke a number of times on the phone, before we met, but I believe he never even got my name! As soon as I would call he would say “owe yes yes your the one from this and this deal….”

    Finally we met outside his attorney’s office in his SUV. Menachem had an infectious smile and a even more impressive can-do attitude. We talked in his vehicle for a long time, all the whole his phone “bluetoothed” the car didn’t stop. Once in a while he would say “oiy I really have to take this call”, and tell them he’s in a meeting and promise to call them back as soon as he’s done.

    We spoke about a whole host of management issues. Incidentally, the one that I remember the most, has been simply distorted since his death. Its about the HPD violations. The average building has about 50 frivolous opened violations (that’s a fact and even a Post reporter knows that!). Tenants often don’t give access to make the repair, or deliberately break it as soon as it was fixed. An inspector can also get moody and write up 15-20 violations on a spic and span picture perfect apartment!! It’s literally like trying to empty a drowning ship with a pail. Even The city recognizes this absurdity; their policy being that one can have up to 5 opened violations per unit!!

    Menachem explained to me in that meeting, that he felt the responsible way was to focus on clearing the violations, regardless of the hardships involved. He hired two extra secretaries just to be on top of violations. That’s how he managed to have only 148 in 1,000 units!!! (That’s less then .15 per unit, what a slumlord!!!)

    I asked him if he would be my partner, he said “no, do it yourself I’ll help you”. When I was persisting, he said “I know your afraid I won’t have time to help you, don’t worry I’ll be there for you, do it yourself!!”. (BTW, It would have been very profitable for him too.)

    I explained to him why I needed him as a partner, and he said, for that he would have to discuss it with his partner and get back to me. But either way, he was quick to add, he’ll be there for me!!!

    We were in touch a number of times after that (I think he still never got my name) and the deal fell thru for totally unrelated reasons…

    To The Post: I didn’t really know Menachem, and apparently people like you and his savage murderers did want him dead, but to answer your question…

    I for one most definitely didn’t want him to die!!!

    I’m not one to jump to call people anti-Semites, and i certainly will not play the motive game. But, the damage you have wrought by playing into those ridiculous stereotypes will be felt tomorrow. No, not every landlord/ manager is a gazillionaire, trying to ripoff or cheat to make even more. And, for crying out loud, tenants are not some hapless, hopeless, indigent, natives being exploited, and frozen, etc. You know that, and shame on you for implying otherwise. Hundreds of young hard working Orthodox Jewish fathers, trying to make a honest living, will have it that much harder thanx to your nonsense.

    (BTW, having met Menachem, I have no doubt he hired a competent exterminator. Those complaining about vermin almost certainly didn’t let them in to spray. Just another of the many difficulties, us Gazillionaires encounter regularly.)

    To Mrs. Shtark and their eight precious children: I know you will probably never read these lines. You never met me, and you don’t know my name. But, Its my fervent hope that can you stand tall and proud that the loving, caring and upbeat husband/father that you knew and remember from in and around the house, is the way the outside world will remember him too…

    Even strangers.

    Yehi Zichro Baruch

    • I think you were the target of a well-orchestrated propaganda campaign. This story is nice, lovely and extremely improbable. By reputation in his own community and beyond Max was not that nice a guy, not to outsiders.

      • So you think I made it up?!?

        Can’t prove it, but believe please, I didn’t exaggerate one word.

        Every word is 100% true.

        Yerachmiel, look at my email address (please don’t publish, obviously). You know who I trust, the Weberman protecting satmars or Bella Winston…

        No, I don’t buy their garbage ever.

        This just happens to be the truth.

        Even the conversation about violations.

      • What I want to know, is how can u judge a person whom you’ve never met, just by nypost ? Why is it that people who’ve known him have only praise for him?
        Do any of you ever want to be at the mercy of nypost? I don’t wish anyone bad, but they’re really trustworthy, no? You’re all following them like little sheep.

        • The murder was done by the kidnappers or their accomplices. Don’t play games. Saying someone is aiding and abetting murder is so over the top meshugah. Do you really not know the difference? Or are you so bent on avoiding the unpleasant truths that you are willing to throw around reckless acusations? Is so, what right do you have to complain about the NY Post when you do the same thing.

          BTW, the NY Post never said he deserved to be killed. They said he had a lot of enemies. If you are on the inside track in Satmar you will know he also had many enemies inside Satmar. Of course they did not say at this moment, at least not in public. But don’t be a sucker for their propaganda.

      • >I think you were the target of a well-orchestrated propaganda campaign.

        There is ample evidence of a propaganda campaign.

        On the day that news of his kidnapping first emerged, the Yelp page for his property management company received a spate of four and five star reviews.

        “I have dealt with Max Stark in business and he is a good man. A loving and kindhearted, honest human being. Very respectful and true to his word. Max is all about courtesy and professionalism. Definitely a pleasure getting to know him and I look forward to doing future business with people like these!,” George F. wrote.

        Jesse Z. added, “Very nice ppl in the management team. Especially Mr. Stark. He was very good to me when I had financial difficulties. Good company to do business with!”

        Those reviews might have blended seamlessly if Southside Associates LLC had a mixed reputation, but the five reviews stood out because until January 3, the page had logged exclusively negative write-ups with the lowest possible score: 1 star.

  8. I am willing to believe you got that message, but not that the message itself is true. If your friend is telliing the truth and it actually happened to him, he has no reason to hide. Let him use his name and share it with the world.

    • No, no it happened to me!!

      If you want my name off the air I’ll gladly give it to you. You know my email.


      The Rabbis teach… כך עונשן של בדאים… the punishment to someone that lies, is that even when he’s saying the truth no one believes him.

      This community has a reputation of circling the wagons, sugarcoating, and covering up for one another. By now they are totally worthless and discredited in your eyes. So much so, that you are convinced that I was sent this story from one of their shoddy PR operations!!

      How’s that for, choking on their own medicine!!

      You know I’m no stand in for Satmar. No, this happened to me. .

        • He must have been a tzaddik. Benny Polatsaeck insists it is true.

          If you can’t trust a mental midget defender of Weberrapistman who can you trust?

  9. Childhood rape victim, here. I disagree. If the charges of what he did to that girl are true, I’m happy he’s dead so he can’t harm anyone else. I’m frum but I will defend the safety and health of the global community before invalidating the struggles of real victims of anti-Semitism. Evet live in a slum, next to drug addicts and smell black tar heroin cooking through the vents? Worried that the fumes would kill your baby? He’s a hardened criminal himself, a fraud and a thief. The sooner we purge our religious communities ofthis filth, the sooner mashiakh will come. Mafia did this? Lol; look at the way khussidim defend him unequivocally without thinking to protect and comfort those whose lives he willfully destroyed. We ARE the mafia for that mentality. Ohr ha goyim, peoples. Stop feeding the stereotypes.

  10. Now we can see that anti charedi is your whole game! To put in the a sex story stinks to high hell Your not better the the anti semite from The new York POST!!!

    • Huh! If a person does something wrong it is wrong. Din echad applies, especially for am hanivchar. It is hard to be or lagoyim when the light gets darkened by misconduct. BTW, the post was obnoxious, not antisemitic. Instead of throwing around the word antisemite, think of the words chillul hashem.

      Erlich charedim are disgusted by all the chazerai. His murder is a terrible crime and a tragedy for his family. But that doesn’t instantly make him a tzadik.

  11. There is a תקנת הקדמונים שלא להוציא לעז על המתים
    You might argue that this is a part of good דיבור, as The Ramba”m says about showing the ugliness of evil deeds. That applies when the slander has a תועלת, so it might apply here if we mean to show what the product of ill behavior is – that one makes enemies who could at the end kill him. But those actions which clearly wouldn’t have lead to his murder, such as the sex offense, does not serve such a purpose, so it is certainly included in the Issur of this Cherem.

    • There is a shita that comes to me from the rav with whom I consult on these matters. He says that too many in the frum world believe abuse is rare and have a hard time believing such allegations can be true about a frum Jew. He feels that we need to break that sort of thinking because it harms the safety of children. This there is a toeles in publicizing all such incidents until we get past that stage of denial.

      • That would perhaps be acceptable to override the general Issur of Lashon Horah. This Cherem is intended to go beyond the regular Guidelines of the issur, otherwise it would be superfluous. The specific Toeles I mentioned is maybe different because it is only שייך to someone who has been murdered, and only from a deceased person can this lesson be learned, so one might argue that it could override the Cherem. I’m not saying that it is a clear and certain Heter, but one might argue it. But simply to tell of the misdeeds of the deceased, is clearly prohibited by this cherem.

    • If you look in the Poskim או”ח סי’ תר”ו you will see that this is more stringent than speaking about a live person in the sense that a person who speaks about a deceased individual is also in Cherem besides the actual Aveira. The guidelines, however, don’t seem to be different from regular Loshon Hora. In fact it says clearly that in an instance where one may call someone a Rosho, one may call him a Rosho Ben Rosho, because it is true a Rosho is a Rosho Ben Rosho as it says ‘Es Avia He M’Chaleles’. From the Mordechai in Hachovel סי’ צ”א it does seem that this is a worse Aveiroh than regular Loshon Horah.

      But I must question the basis of this Heter to speak even on a live person in a case like this. When there is an issue of sex offense going on and there is a question whether to expose it or cover it up, then the Shita of your Rav applies. But when there is no issue at hand about a sex offense, I would not imagine that it is a Mitzva to uncover old sins that aren’t relevant to anything now. It makes such a discussion appear like nothing other than cheap gossip and slander. The Toeles in such a case seems very far fetched. Just imagine if someone would do a study on Jews buried in a particular cemetary, and write a report about everybody, and tell of sins that they have committed. I would say he is a Talmid of Bilam who is simply out to slander the Jewish People. That’s is the way this looks as well. So while you explain some long shot of a toeles that may come from this, in the meantime the way it appears to the average reader is like the way it appears to me.

      Please show your Rav my objections and ask him what he rules in this instance. But please be honest in the way you ask, so that you will get his true opinion on the matter.

      • We have already discussed your issue. My previous answer stands. There is a desparate need for the safety of children in general that the frum world finally recognizes that anyone who looks like a frum Jew can also be a molester. The stereotype must be broken. Otherwise we will continue to have kids complaining and adults not believing them or responding. That is a major toeles. Once that defective thinking is cured we can worry more about the reputations that are hurt of those who are outed.

        Try and remember that major poskim have ruled that child molesting is a matter of pikuach nefesh.

        Based on my information, Mr. Stark also engaged in behavior that endangered him and others. Moreover, many others are doing the same thing, including dealing with the mob. This is bound to lead to more such tragedies. Making him look like a tzadik or even a beinoni is endangering the public. I also fear that if there is not more true cooperation with the police his murderers will get away with the crime.

        Instead of trying to complain about adverse coverage and blaming the admittedly trashy conduct of the N Y Post, the community should be working on getting his murderers found and convicted.

        It is too late to save Menachem Stark’s life or reputation. It is not too late to convict his murderers and prevent other such tragedies.

        • I can continue to argue the point, but I don’t see that it will get us anywhere. Let me just say this. The work that you are doing is indeed very important. It is in the Geder of Ubiarto Horo Mikirbecha. But when cleaning away the bad, you are in the business of dealing with bad merchendise. This needs a Shmira Yesairoh. The flogger is being Osek B’mitzva as a Shliach Bais Din, but if he doesn’t take extra care, it will destroy his sensitivity to human suffering of others and will become an Achzer. Chaza’l say that a Shochet Behema Gasa is a Shutaf of Amalek, even though it is a mitzvah, because it is an act of barbarism to slay such a large mammal, so the person might become barbaric. I know a shochet who is a real tzadik, who out of fear of the effect that his profession may have on his middos, makes sure to learn the entire hilchos shchita and treifos once every month, in order that his work should be enveloped in Kedusha and the kedushas hatorah will protect his middos. The gemara says that by an enemy since the nesoyon is bigger, the normal rule is changed and teuna comer before prika, Keday Lokuf Es Yitzro. I feel that the work you are doing is necessary, but you might lose your sensitivity to Loshon Horah through it and make you see things in a way which will always bend toward yes slander rather than not. Keep this in mind.

      • >If you look in the Poskim או”ח סי’ תר”ו you will see that this is more stringent
        >than speaking about a live person in the sense that a person who speaks
        >about a deceased individual is also in Cherem besides the actual Aveira.

        A rabbinic decree is not more stringent then the biblical prohibition of Lashon Hara. A violation of a rabbinic decree cannot be a “worse Aveiroh” than the biblical prohibition of Lashon Hara. Please find a way to access the linked article from Jsafe:

        • I can’t. But I don’t understand your difficulty with this. We find often that the Rabonon were Machmir on certain things more than a Deorayso. And the Kaf Hachayim brings from Shulchan Govoha clearly in this case קדמונינו ז״ל הוסיפו להחמיר דשלהם אף לחייבו חרם This is actually the simple understanding but I brought this source who clearly says so.. :

        • >We find often that the Rabonon were Machmir on certain things more than a Deorayso.

          So you and your Rabbonim are more machmir on peasach with kitnyot then chametz? Think about what you are writing.

          • I’ll still give you the benefit of the doubt, because maybe you genuinely don’t understand, but you’re beginning to arouse suspicion that you are a words twister and a person who debates without integrity. First of all why do you say “your Rabbonim”? about Chaza’l? Are they not also yours? or did you misread what I wrote? I didn’t say Rabbonim, I said Rabonon, which refers to Chaza’l. I won’t bring many examples but look in the MISHNA ביצה פרק ה’ משנה ו where it clearly states that the Rabonon were machmir more than the Torah. and the Gemara in the beginning of Maseches Brachos כל העובר על דברי כחמים חייב מיתה . So even though this about speaking bad about deceased is not in the Gemara, I merely showed you the concept that a Derabonon could be more stringent than a Deorayso. In our case The Mordechai, who is accepted by all, says that this is an old early takana, and that there is a Cherem for this, which there isn’t for just plain slander, as the poskim explaim. So what exactly are you arguing about? Do you deny that this is what is written in the sources that i site? See for yourself.

            Furthermore, you write “So you and your Rabbonim are more machmir on peasach with kitnyot then chametz?” Why are you misrepresenting what I said? Did I say that we are ALWAYS machmir on a Derabonon more than a deorayso? And, in fact, even when they were machmir more, it was not in every sense, just in the sense that they meant. Why are you twisting my words in order to appear as though you are disproving me? That is dishonest.

        • I didn’t twist your words. That is completely untrue. I quoted them. You want to call me dishonest for quoting you? If I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me, I still see no basis for your improper allegation.

          The law is not that a rabbinic decree is more stringent then the biblical prohibition of Lashon Hara.

          I cannot help that you are unable to access the JSAFE website because of your internet filter.

          Here is an excerpt from the material:

          “However, despite this enactment, there are times when one is permitted to speak ill of
          the dead. It is important to note that this prohibition is not derived from the Torah verse banning
          lashon hara; it stems from a rabbinic decree and is, thus, no more stringent than the laws of
          lashon hara themselves. Since lashon hara which is otherwise biblically prohibited is allowed if there is a to’elet, so too lashon hara about the deceased is permitted if there is a to’elet. While the nature of the to’elet may change —after all, the deceased is no longer a threat to any one else’s safety—there may be any number of beneficial purposes in sharing this information including: preventing others from learning inappropriate behavior, condemning such behavior, clearing one’s own reputation, seeking advice, support, and help, one’s own psychological benefit, and validating the abusive experience of others who may have felt that they, and no one else, was this man’s victim.

          Furthermore, the restriction on speaking ill of the dead may be based on the assumption that death was a kapparah , i.e., it was an atonement for sins. This atonement, however, is predicated on his having repented before his death, and that repentance requires both restitution for the harm caused and reconciliation with the victim.
          If the perpetrator had not reconciled with his victim, no atonement was achieved. And of such an unrepentant sinner the verse teaches, “The memory of the just is blessed; but the name of the wicked shall rot” (Proverbs 10:7). ”

          93 Yoma 85b; See Sha’arei Teshuvah 4:20.
          94 See Bava Mezi’a 62b.
          95 See Yoma 38b.
          96 See Sanhedrin 31a and Hoshen Mishpat 98:1.

          • Fine, I said that I would give you the benefit of the doubt, but I was just a bit concerned, but now that you say that it was a misunderstanding, I accept that, and we are friends.

            I thank you for providing me with the excerpt. It doesn’t seem as though he relies on a source, but that this is rather this author’s interpretation of the Halacha, which is fine, but available and open to debate. He writes that it is no more stringent. I addressed this . It is clearly more stringent in the sense of the fact there there is a Cherem, but as far as the guidelines, it seems from some sources that it is the same as regular Loshon Hora and from The Mordechai it is Mashma that it is worse, all exactly as I already explained. He hypothsises that the restriction is because the death was a kapporah, and he then follows that since avairos shebain adam lachaveiro aren’t forgiven if the person didn’t make amands, it therefore doesn’t apply. This logic is interesting at best but not Muchach. First of all the restriction might be for other reasons. I’ll give a hypothesis, without making a claim that it is correct because nobody could know for sure, so we can only guess. So maybe the reason is that when a person is in the olam haemess – the place of judgement, we should not make a Kitrug… Even if his hypothesis is correct, his further argument doesn’t necessarily follow. An aveiro bain adam lachavairo also has an aspect of bain adam lamakom, that he disobayed Hashem in hurting his fellow man, which Hashem prohibits, and although he didn’t get a kaporo for the part of bain ada,m lachavero but maybe the part of lamokom his death WAS mechaper, and the slander puts the aveiro into it’s full strength as though he didn’t repent at all. So all in all. But his position is certainly interesting and worth mention.

        • I just remembered that I read a public statement on this issue many years ago by Rabbi Eidensohn and just found my notes. Basically, the cherem applies to mozi shem ra not lashon harah. Rabbi Eidensohn referred to the following:

          Emes L’Yaakov[1](Bereishis 37:18): I was asked by a student why the Torah tells the story about how Yosef was treated by his brothers – isn’t it lashon harah? I answered firstly that the prohibition of lashon harah in fact only applies to the living but according to the Torah it is permitted to speak lashon harah about the dead except for an ancient cherem (Orech Chaim 606:3). And this cherem only applies to slander but not to facts even if they are not flattering.

          אמת ליעקב (בראשית לז:יח): שאלני תלמיד א’ איך צריך להסביר מה שסיפרה התורה סיפורים אלו על אחי יוסף, וכי אין זה בגדר לשון הרע? ומתחלה עניתי דבאמת לשה”ר אינו אלא על החיים, ועל מתים מותר מצד הדין ואינו אלא חרם הקדמונים [עיין או”ח סי’ תר”ו ס”ג]. והחרם אינו אלא על מוצאי שם רע ולא על לשון הרע.

          So basically, you have misstated and misunderstood the cherem. Hope that settles the issue. No situation comes to mind were it would there would be a to’elet to make false and slanderous (false) statements against anyone dead or alive.

          • Now you’re talking! I even looked again in to the sources to see if this could fit, and haven’t found anything to undermine this ruling. So I admit to you.

  12. Wednesday 8 January 2014

    What a site! I just sent this. Here is a copy for you. I alerted all major outlets to this on the same day as the snatching. No mention of this. And now Tis item has disappeared from the popular news outlets.

    Dear Ms Yee,

    This is a fascinating incident.
    I am surprised that The Times even went near it.
    I strongly believe that there is a Georgian / Russian Mafia connection.
    You may begin by pulling up his business website.
    Text in Georgian, Georgian flag displayed.
    Name in lower right hand corner of what may appear to be simply a website designer.
    Follow that name and see what you come up with.
    Only you will know what pressures you may experience to lay off of this matter.

    Frederic J. Feingold

    • May i thank all those who subscribe to astroglide, and such, and the rest of you debating lashon hara etc for the dead vs the living,. So our dearly departed menachem stark has followers, worried about his astroglide and his nuts.
      This FF site has had much of interest in the past, but never has the extent of one subject pre-occupied two incumbents, to such an extent.,,,,, glad everyone is happy, So what the heck is the story with this dead burnt body,,, . Is not, that, the real issue here? and not lashon harah?

  13. Joel kestenbaum , Fortis property purchased the mortgage on 212 -218 N 9th St Brooklyn NY from Broadway Bank, The property was further transferred on 08/16/2013 to a new Corporation named FPG 218 NORTH 9th PROPERTYLLC. C/O FORTIS PROPERTY GROUP LLC 45 Main Street Brooklyn NY 11201 Joel kestenbaum is notarized as the President / Owner by a Notary named Shem Tov Mayer on 05/05/12 Notary# 01MA5069188 NYS Kings County . Joel Kestenbaum purchased the Mortgage on the building owned by Israel Perlmutter & Menachem Stark. King County Block 2313: Lot# 5 and lot # 7 . The Mortgage was defaulted on and the National Bank was subsequently shut down by the FDIC . Joel Kestenbaum as a first mortgage holder wants to own the property that is worth over $50 million and didn’t want any fights with Permutter or Stark in the foreclose process, Rumors are that Kestenbaum was in arguments with them regarding this property and is a possible suspect .

  14. Joel Kestenbaum from Fortis property investment Group purchased the mortgage on 212 -218 N 9th St Brooklyn NY from Broadway Bank, The property was further transferred on 08/16/2013 to a new Corporation named FPG 218 NORTH 9th PROPERTYLLC. C/O FORTIS PROPERTY GROUP LLC 45 Main Street Brooklyn NY 11201 Joel Kestenbaum is notarized as the President / Owner by a Notary named Shem Tov Mayer on 05/05/12 Notary# 01MA5069188 NYS Kings County . Joel Kestenbaum purchased the Mortgage on the building owned by Israel Perlmutter & Menachem Stark. Kings County Section: 8 ,Block: 2313<: Lot# 5 and lot # 7 . The Mortgage was defaulted on and the bank who made the loan National Bank was subsequently shut down by the FDIC . Joel Kestenbaum purchased the failed loan from the FDIC and as a first mortgage holder wants to own the property that is worth over $50 million and didn’t want any fights or opposing court battles with Permutter or Stark in the foreclosing process, Rumors are that Kestenbaum had a nasty argument with the murdered Menachem " Max" Stark who was murdered and his partner Perlmutter regarding this property prior to Starks murder. Rumors out there is that Joel Kestenbaum is being implicated and is being questioned by authorities regarding Starks Murder

See Commenting policy ( )

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s