You Spot It, You Got It!

LETTER TO FDA COMMISSIONER:
“You were wrong to classify Rx __ as addictive. I should know; I’ve taken it every day for 30 years.”

LETTER TO FRUM FOLLIES:

“You have no business saying Rabbi Meisels is a manipulative sex abuser. We should know. All of us think he is amazing and we like his flirting. But none of us have ever seen him favor another girl with sex.”

 

 

 

 

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34 thoughts on “You Spot It, You Got It!

  1. I assumed the letter-writer was being sarcastic, seeing the words “favor another girl with sex” I hope I was right. YL, was there more in the letter which gives a clue?

  2. There they go again with the “amazing”. I’m definitely going to reevaluate my use of that word.

  3. I am reminded of the man who said, “Why does everyone make such a big deal about quitting smoking? It’s so easy! In fact, I have done it dozens of times!”

    I wonder if the letter writer realizes that her defense is so poor that it actually makes Meisels look even worse than he did before. If that’s possible.

      • I reread it. You are right Joe! Problem is, there are so many outrageous statements made by apologists that it almost could have been meant seriously…

  4. the courage of the girls were who reported his behavior should be applauded. Imagine the pressure they were under. I heard recently from a Har Nof Meisels apologist that this occurred because “people are jealous about how much money – $250K per sem per year- he was earning”
    I was beyond incredulous.

  5. I think it is best for the victims that the specificity of the abuse remain out of the discussion. It is enough that anyone who attended is under a cloud, whether or not they were smitten by him. Adding to the mix exactly what it entailed will only add to the shame of the alumni regardless of whether or not they got abused.

    “did you suck him off or only french kiss? Is not a question a victim should have to face.

  6. I have been following the posts for a while, however this is my first post.
    What is unfortunate about this whole sega, is that if you have a Menhal/Rebbi/Seminary head, who cares for his students, he would have months ago left the seminary.
    Imagine the pain and the denial of his thousands of students.
    How will they ever trust a Rov, when they had a “Rov” themselves who fell to the lowest level?
    A person in such a position who falls, not only ruins himself, the “consensual” victim but all of klal yisroel.
    I am a big denier, but yet a believer. I deny to believe all these allegations against highly respected people, but Yet unfortunately, I have to believe it.
    Throughout the years, I have had many discussions with Rabonim in all different walks of life. From Chasdic, Litvish to modern Orthodox. They all told me how hard the nisyon is when they are dealing with women/girls, especially when they have issues regarding their S*x life, allegations of cheating about a spouse etc. They ALL told me when someone comes in who is “weak” and emotionally challenged by the situation they are in, not only are they suspetable, the rov himself becomes suseptable.
    The rabinim each told me they have gedarim. One rov only meets in his office, and doesnt have shades on the window. Another has his wife on the call when speaking with women about sensitive topics, another tells them he is not fit to deal with the issue.
    Whatever it may be, this is a serious issue, and it is not a new one. Throughout the years, there have been stories, about people cheating with girls in their office, Hatzalah members doctors, professionals etc.
    The only way to be careful, is to make gedarim. This is not fully the victims fault, but the person with authority, who exceeded his authority.

    and of course have Seichel, Years ago a Seminary teacher told over on a tape: If a rabbi tells you something that doesnt make sense, run away. He is a pervert.

    As they say הפורץ גדר ישכנו נחש. the one who breaches the gate, the snake should bite him.

    • I agree 100%. You see the girls on this blog that are in total denial that such a thing can happen because it would be so incredibly painful, and i know for a fact that in pninim, there were alot of girls that opened up to teachers, and alot of them had never done it before. You feel that along with the seminary experience, you should establish at least one go-to person to ask advice from, and in this case alot of the girls turned to him just because he was easily accessible (which ended up being part of the problem).
      I also think that rabbi meisels should once and for all put out a public statement saying whether he did or did not do these alleged acts. Its not fair to put all the girls thru this..

    • Feivy,
      I’d like to be דן לכף זכות.

      When you wrote “This is not FULLY the victims fault”, you really meant, “This is NOT AT ALL the victims fault”. Please acknowledge that correction.

      • Daniel:
        With all do respect, and as much as it is sad to say, yes it is “not fully the victims fault”.
        We are not dealing with a rape. This is a 18 year old girl, who is of marriageable age, and she has the ability to say no. Whether she is being set up by her father, rebbi, teacher or whoever it may sadly be.
        The girl may have been coerced, but she is still at fault, at least partially.
        Unless the facts of this story is that Meisles gave her meds to ruin her thought and ability to chose between right and wrong.
        it is sad. and it pains me.

        • You claim the victims had “the ability to say no.” What makes you think they were ever asked?!

          You sound like you have very little knowledge about grooming and manipulation as they relate to sexual abuse. Please read up about these before you blame victims who are 100% innocent.

          • I am aware. That is for starters. (although probably not as much as you)
            If they did not have the ability to say no, then it would be rape, and he should be prosecuted.
            Groom or not groomed, no person in their right mind would allow an act.
            We are not dealing with a “Chashdish” kid that has no idea what s* is. almost everyone knows, and everyone knows what a violation is.
            It is sad, and the victim is still a victim. But a victim may still be somewhat at fault.
            A girl who walks in a deserted area in NYC, and is raped, is still a victim, however she is partially at fault. It is said but that is life.
            Same is a person who is speeding down a street, and someone runs out in front of the car. Yes, someone ran in front, but he is at fault for speeding.

            Every person in their right mind, should know what can be, and what cant be done.
            If a neighbor groomed a married lady to commit an indecent act, NO ONE will say she is not at fault. A doctor who is do a gyno exam and does something may be a bit different because they have access and the person is in an extremely vulnerable position.

            But how can you justify a girl to be 100% innocent for doing partaking in an act?
            You can justify that the girl probably needed TLC and then things got to far. Agreed. But still at fault.

            In no way to I justify Meisles. He should be publicly shamed, and should admit his wrong. come out and apologize (if in fact he did do it) He acted against vulnerable girls.

          • Feivy is right. This is not a typical abuser/molester situation and I DO know what I am talking about in that regard. One of the main reasons that the information has been kept so deeply under wraps is because there is a certain, be it miniscule, level of responsibility on the girls part that they ARE willing to take responsibility for. It does not IN ANY WAY absolve Meisels AT ALL, but it is not the same as other child molestation situations. We don’t like to hear anyone use the word fault with the word molester but that does not change the facts. What he did was bad enough as is, we don’t present it in any different light. He is still dangerous, and he is still responsible for taking advanage of the weaknesses in these girls.

        • Feivy,

          It’s clear that you’ve never been abused yourself, nor has any of your close relatives been abused (to your knowledge, at least). Be grateful for that. Otherwise, you would realize how misguided it is to say the victim is partially at fault, at least without making clear that the abuser (who is the adult in this situation, and in a position of authority) shoulders at least 99% of the blame.

          These girls were 6,000 miles from home and, right or wrong, had not been trained to deal with this type of situation. They had no reason not to trust their “Rabbi.” If he’s like typical abusers, he carefully chose his victims – the more vulnerable the better. Then he would have acted gradually, all the while desensitizing his victims to his immodest and inappropriate behavior. It may have seemed strange to the girls, but he is a “Rabbi” after all.

          Once he crossed a line that was wrong by ANY standard, some of the girls may have realized at that point, but guess what? Even if they told him to stop and even if he listened, that would not erase the molester’s guilt for the line that had already been crossed. The crime has already been committed (not to mention all the grooming that it took to get to that point, which is a crime in and of itself). And, if they didn’t tell him to stop, because he (their “Rabbi”) had very deviously desensitized them to his immoral behavior, there is only one person who I would blame for that.

  7. The power inequality between a rav of stature and desperate, needy young lady, all alone in Israel and perhaps infatuated with this person, is such that I do not think it is really fair to suggest she had much of a choice. We laud Yosef HaTzadik for the very reason that such a choice is so difficult to make.

    Young ladies are easily manipulated (as are young men), especially in the orthodox community.

    As for persons in positions of power being tempted, there are some things that are absolutely unacceptable.

    Having a personal relationship with anyone of the opposite gender when you are married is problematic, beyond the fact that it is a betrayal of one’s commitment to one’s spouse.

    Flirting is worse.

    Seduction is even worse.

    Engaging in unwanted sexual contact (which the Chicago Beis Din reportedly found to be the case) is not only completely unacceptable but illegal.

    As for the statement that rape did not occur, penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth is considered rape by the U.S. Justice Department.

    Psychologically speaking, one can abuse those who admire you in ways that are not very different than sexual abuse in terms of long-term outcome.

    • I agree with you.
      I went to Yeshiva in Israel. And to Yeshivish ones.
      I will be the first to say that Boys and Girls, who are not mature should not be there.
      The loneliness is terrible, and often a lonely boy meets a lonely girl… and figure out the end yourself.
      My chavrusa in israel (admitted to “hanging” out with girls) and he said it was his parents fault for sending him before he was ready. When i confronted him if he would marry a girl who hung out he said “NO WAY” they were psychologically violated. (albeit by himself)

      we laud Yosef Hatzadik for making the right choice. But realize he was in Mitzrayim against his will, and sold as a slave. Is that how far you are going with a girl? Was she sold by her family into slavery being in seminary? How can you say that?
      She went (albeit with pressure) from her own will.

      This is not only a problem from rebbeim and seminary heads. The problem is from yeshiva Students as well. (I know for a fact).

      you are right that a seminary head can manipulate someone. But there is a point that manipulation can get to someone.

      Again. ANYONE WHO does such a thing, does not deserve to be a seminary head, and anyone in the school who allowed it to go on should be punished.
      And i will say the same for anyone who has an extra martial affair does not deserve to lead people. Not because of the sin of what they did, but becuase they cannot control themselves.

  8. Joe,

    You do not have Binah. Binah is the ability to discern between matters that may seem similar in nature. Feivy is a very smart man indeed and sorry if he does not meet your standards of what a “sensitive advocate” should look like.

    For every moron who denies and covers up, it seems that there is another one like Joe who will jump to conclusions based on emotion only. Leave the brain behind.

    When a child or minor is molested, it is 100% not the minors fault. Chas V’Shalom.

    If, however, a girl who may be “troubled:” gets involved with a teacher or Rebbi…it is wrong on both sides. “Troubled” or “At risk” does not mean innocent or guiltless. It can not be used as a cop out. In fact, in these cases, “troubled” may mean girls looking for attention and relationships and wanting to be noticed by teachers whom they like. Very bad behavior. And so the girls in this case may have very well contributed to what happened. they spent time with him and wanted his affection…perhaps not anticipating what it would lead to. Please stop presenting them as innocent victims. they are not.

    This is not molestation or abuse.

    However, it is horrible behavior by Mesiels, sleazy and disqualifies him from any position in chinuch. He should take most of the blame but that does not absolve the girls.

    So please stop attacking Feivy for his right on remarks because your bleeding heart feels that these “poor” girls were taken advantage of. the truth is not that simple.

    The truth hurts but should be spoken.

    • Jack (Feivy, C.W., and any other names you may be using),

      I’m sorry, but you’re the one who is speaking out of ignorance. Don’t get me wrong – I’m happy for you. I was once blissfully ignorant as well – be grateful that you still are.

      As the close relative of a victim over 18 – a model Bais Yaakov girl – I can tell you with certainty that being past the age of majority does not mean that the girl is not a victim.

      • For the record: I only use one SN Feivy. I do not know Jack and his not my alias.
        “I can tell you with certainty that being past the age of majority does not mean that the girl is not a victim.”
        Well then the victim may be suffering from some time of insanity. “Almost” every 18 year old knows the difference between right and wrong.
        I feel terrible for your close relative who was a victim. I cry, and are pained how she was violated, in the worst way possible, by a trusted figure. But truth is truth.

  9. and I am not Feivy! LOL!

    C.W. thanks for the compliment, though I thought you said it well yourself.

    Joe, here you go with PC correctness again. My comment was not tactful. I “apologize” for upsetting your sensibilities. I hit hard because I felt that what you are saying is very dangerous. When we lose the ability to make smart judgments, we lose credibility even when we are totally right. By saying that these victims are 100% innocent when it is obvious to most that they are not, you lose credibility and the result of that is that credibility is lost even when we make claims about innocent underage minors who are truly 100% innocent.

    By overeaching, you end up losing. Kol Hamosif Go’reah

  10. Joe,

    As to the model student, you may be missing some facts, that is #1. Even if true that she was a model student and that the person preyed on her…let us say that her guilt level is extremely low…maybe a less than 1% (whereas some of the girls in this case may have been much less innocent), it is still NOT the same thing as a child being molested.

    I know about cases and I do understand to the best of my ability that a very frum 18 year old girl is perhaps almost on the level of a minor when it comes these issues because of the lack of knowledge. It must be extremely difficult for a girl such as your relative to be in a situation where a trusted mentor does that…but still a bit different than a minor who is molested.

    I can even grant you that In the case of your relative, perhaps it qualifies very closely to a 100% innocent case. However, the cases over here appear to be far different and that is where I strongly take issue with you.

    You can not lump them all together

    • Jack,

      Granted not every case is identical. But, whether it’s less than 1% or whether it’s 10%, any very small degree of guilt on the part of the victims is not what we should be focusing on.

  11. Feivy,

    First, my apologies for implying that you went by more than one screen name.

    If a girl is “violated, in the worst way possible, by a trusted figure” (as you wrote) then we agree that she is a victim. If Meisels is “responsible for taking advanage of the weaknesses in these girls” (to quote C.W.), that too is an acknowledgment that they are victims. If any victims shares a “minuscule” portion of the blame (to, again, quote C.W.), that’s not what we should be focusing on.

    Making them sound equally guilty is beyond wrong. I agree that neither you nor C.W. went that far in your own comments, but C.W. implied that by wishing that he had written exactly what Jack wrote.

  12. I never said that they are equally guilty. Never. I presented the situation as it may have occurred at least in some of the cases. Girls dressing up for the Rabbi, vying for his attention and private sessions, not hesitating to take late night rides because they actually wanted to be with him. These scenarios are inventions of my mind but are based on what may have happened in these cases. Not equally guilty. Just the need to point out that it is not the same as molestation.

    You say we shouldn’t focus on it. I agree. The reason we have focused on it is because you made a very irresponsible statement which can actually backfire. Do not overreach. Speak the truth and it will be heard. What Meisels did is reprehensible. I for one believe that a full investigation of both Meisles and any potential enablers should proceed, but when you state that the girls are 100% innocent, without disclaimer, that needs to be challenged.

    • I never said the victims are 100% innocent. What I said was “that the abuser (who is the adult in this situation, and in a position of authority) shoulders at least 99% of the blame.” Maybe you feel the correct percentage is more like 90%. However, there is no point arguing about exact percentages – the point is that the abuser shoulders the overwhelming majority of the blame. I think we can agree on that.

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