How Meisels Can Prove It Was Just a Hug

Elimelech Meisels,

There is a terrible machlokes about you. Yesh omrim, some say, you raped, fondled, seduced, sent dirty pictures of yourself, sent dirty texts and emails, and so on. Viyesh omrim, and some say, it was just a hug. In fact a certain rabbi in Israel says it could have been just a consensual, non-sexual, Tattie-style hug.

Elimelech Meisels

Elimelech Meisels

On the other hand, according to the Special Beis Din in Chicago (CBD) because of “unwanted physical contact of a sexual nature between Elimelech Meisels and students” which you “confessed,” students “are at risk of harm.” They even say you delivered a “handwritten list of multiple additional victims.” They think you are so dangerous that you “may have no contact with any girls, including present or former students, not by mail, email, texting, talking, Shabbos meals; no contact whatsoever.”

Wow! The CBD is really down on you. Yet Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn says even if you should not be in chinuch any more because you violated negiah, you are not that bad.

Unfortunately for you, Elimelech Meisels, the only official statement about your behavior comes from the CBD. Nobody else has said you did less or more. They just talk about the present safety of the school (where you haven’t been since May).

Elimelech Meisels, only you can solve this machlokes.

Rav Gedalia Dov Schwartz NYT 2012 Senior Dayan, Special Beis Din, Chicago (aka CBD)

Sign a release allowing the CBD to publicly share their evidence (while protecting the identity of the witnesses). I’ll bet that Chicago will honor your request. They just have a fetish about protecting private information unlike others who will not be mentioned. If it was only a hug with one student who was distressed, think of how your reputation will be improved. People might even start calling you Rabbi Meisels again instead of “Mr.”

Just this once; I will call you “Rabbi.”

Rabbi Meisels, for the sake of truth, your honor, and peace in the community, please sign a release so Rabbi Eidensohn can finally know for sure. Do it for the home team, the IBD, especially Chaim Malinowitz. Do it for your students, who still want to believe in you. Do it for your family. Do it!

Rabbi Meisels, I promise you that if the released documents show it was just hugs, I will post a big headline “I Was Wrong; Eidensohn Was Right; It Was Just Hugs From Rabbi Meisels.”

Happy Chanukah as we once again celebrate chasing out those who violated the mikdash kodesh.

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91 thoughts on “How Meisels Can Prove It Was Just a Hug

  1. just willing to bet, you know yerachmiel, miesels ( i wont use rabbi but will if he agrees),
    miesels ain’t never goin to sign. He is alleged to have attempted rape

    • Actually, he is alleged to have both attempted and committed rape according to the lawsuit. But if Eidensohn is right, and it was just a hug, I am giving him a chance to prove it.

      • A hypothetical scenario:
        Supposing the CBD was overly influenced by someone very close to them who had a financial interest in taking over the seminaries and saw his chance when Meisels did the things that he did (sufficient to keep him out of girls’ education forever). Now let’s also suppose that Meisels has evidence proving that influence, and that he took that evidence to a Gadol — let’s say Rav Chaim Kanievsky, who told him that that publicizing that evidence would only increase the chilul hashem.
        Who should he listen to, the hypothetical R’ Chaim or the apocryphal Yerachmiel Lopin?

        • So, Meisels would listen to R’ Chaim Kanievsky when it came to not publicizing information, but when it came to the things that he allegedly did to the girls as outlined above, including rape, he wasn’t so frum? Hahahahaha!!

          Keep screming “Gottesman!” if it makes you feel good.

          • Don’t waste your time taking this seriously enough to reply. He isn’t mibeis levi. He is a house bochur mibeis Elimelech. His goal is to replace the chanting of Gottesman with “Kanievsky said.” But if this is true, Eidensohn could find a way to say it on his blog. But he wont because there are honest people who will check with R. Chaim Kanievsky.

        • And I suppose the Tzaddik Meisles was also very frum when he never bothered to ask a sheilah asking if he could be alone with girls at 4am talking about sexual topics. What a scrupulous Jew he is indeed. Who was his Rav anyway? Did the guy ever ask a shailah in his life?

        • Bluntly, who do you think knows more about the situation and is more qualified to comment: “the apocryphal Yerachmiel Lopin” who has been closely following and reporting on it for six months, or “the hypothetical R’ Chaim” who was probably asked a simple 30 second yes or no question?

          • Although Rav Chaim is no doubt a Gadol, you’ve made a strong point very nicely. I would ink use the fact that even though someone is considered a Talmid Chocham, it by no means gives them a certificate in handling sex abuse cases.

        • The concrete fact is Meisels wandering hands. Yesh Yadayim, viraglayim, v’od lidavar.
          I and R. Chaim Kanievsky are real. My stand on abuse is real and consistent since I started blogging 5 years ago. That is something that Eidensohn knows since he re-posted a number of my articles over the years. The only hypothetical is R. Chaim’s position on this issue. The great mystery is Eidensohn’s moving to the other side. It isn’t just me who is mystified. Other bloggers who previously sided with Eidensohn are also mystified including David Morris, Harry Maryles, Rare View Dus iz neies, activists such as Dorron Katzin. In fact the most bizarre thing is Eidensohn coming up with long lists of those he faults for not condemning me such as Rabbi Yosef Blau (Mashgiach Ruchani, Yitzchok Elchanan) the senior mentor to many of us active against abuse. Oh, he is also convinced that the Chicago Tribune, & the Jewish Week are controlled by the CBD in deciding when to publish stories about Meisels. He also believes the refund lawsuit by parents was a “blood libel.” Psychology PhD, Eidensohn should reread his diagnostic manual on paranoia.

          The most absurd part of this convoluted fabrication is the idea that the Chicago dayanim could have potentially benefited from their position. It has caused them nothing but grief because they defied the corrupt Haredi norm of always protecting prestigious families and concealing abuse from the public.

  2. Interesting. Is the only reason that CBD has not released more specific information because they need Meisels permission? Because that does not seem to make sense. But I do believe you have upped the ante and he needs to “call” it.

    • The CBD has been very discrete about the details of his misconduct. They only released enough to justify their position that the seminaries were not safe and not in compliance with Title IX and the scope and quality of investigation. The most damaging document to meisels’ reputation (apart from the lawsuits) came from whoever leaked the CBD conditions to Eidensohn.

  3. He’s not gonna sign a release…and Lopin if there is a doubt in your mind about it, why have u been reporting on this story???

    • If I am right about him, it would be insane for him to have the world know all the awful things he did. But his supporters claim it was just a hug. If so, he could rehabilitate his reputation. I am just trying to show that his supporters should not be believed. But if I am wrong, this gives him a way to show it.

    • Of course he won’t but I want his supporters to stop claiming the charges are inflated or outright untrue. He has some who still believe him. I hope this will help them see the truth about this pig.

  4. What a brilliant idea, Lopin 🙂

    Eli, if there’s a recording of u only admitting to nothing more than just a hug, then prove it. Although, you could have done that easily 6 months ago. Hmm…

    And I, too, will write up an extended guest post praising you in every which way (like the seminary girls who still kiss your toes now). Come on, Rabbi Meisles..don’t you want the Pninim girl who was your pride and joy back on your side? I’m waiting…

  5. If he was “over” Yichud and negiah he has no chezkas Kashrus so nothing HE says should be believed and he should NOT be allowed any form of respect or kibud including but NOT limited to be called Rabbi.

  6. Please also remember that there were plenty of “women” and “mother” figures in the seminaries who were capable of administering “motherly” hugs, so anyone who would even consider that he “administered” a “fatherly” hug is off his or her rocker. It is so off the mark and unbelievable that anyone who believes that automatically believes that Weberman is as innocent as they come. No Rabbi has the right in any way, shape or form to administer any form of touch to any female unless he is administering first aid or CPR in an emergency situation and even then he should be calling for back-up.

  7. Excellent suggestion. It would also be helpful to the staff-some of whom seem to post on DT- that insists there were no admissions by any of them if they too get together and sign a letter authorizing the release of all documents and evidence related to them. They could send it to the CBD and send copies to all the bloggers covering the case. That would show just how serious they are in proving claims being made on their behalf that there were no findings of staff wrongdoing , and no evidence for it exists.

  8. Just waiting for the seminary staff to show up. Before they do, I can simply make their job easier and present their objections before they do. Note that this is a silly list, but these seem to be the main lines of argument that the Meisels defenders are offering.
    1) CBD lied or were lied to. The letter is garbage either way
    2) Gottesman!
    3) There was no handwritten list of victims
    4) Gottesman! And Chicago is corrupt, too
    5) Why fight the battle against abuse by ruining a man? <———- This is a relatively new one
    6) In their diyun with the JBD, the CBD had a complete change of heart. A reversal. They now see the allegations in a completely different way and no longer believe them to be true
    7) Gottesman!
    8) The teachers are all so innocent and pure. This is because they didn't have anything to report, because the allegations were all so minor anyway. So why have any claims against the teachers? Further proof Meisels did nothing, because the teachers weren't brought anything that serious.
    9) EIdenson has already answered these claims. Even bringing this issue up makes you a fool who is ignorant of halacha, logic, law, medicine, cooking, and scuba diving. You clearly haven't read anything about this case.

    • Point 9 is completely unfair to me. I do dive under the muck to shine the light of truth. I am also a good cook. I favor simple, fresh, true ingredients, but I flavor with some spice. My dishes are unpredictable. They depend on the ingredients at hand.

    • Triangle – Great list, especially #9!

      (I’m reminded of a song about potion #9 – which maybe Meisels was a victim of, and can be added to your list of nonsensical defenses.)

      YL – Great reply to #9 !!

      • Pigs are highly intelligent animals. They are very clean. They also are quite friendly and trainable. Why would you disrespect them with such a comparison?

        • I have heard from some of the kosher farm animals that the pig community is quite upset. You are correct. I have a letter from a Thaddeus Chazir, esq. respectfully requesting that all such references be removed. I responded on Yerachmiel’s behalf saying that these are all opinions and are therefore protected speech. You should have heard Mr. Chazir squeal when I told him!

    • A very apt comparison. The pig shows everyone how kosher he is (sticks out his front leg which has a cleft hoof) while knowing he’s completely unkosher.

  9. I’m feeling very confused. Here I went OTD because my rebbi said I couldn’t have a girlfriend only to find out from kishkeyum that it’s really OK because it was only negiah? I would like to file a refund claim for all the tuition that was paid for me to learn that girls are assur only to find out now that its really not so bad.

    Kishkeyum can you please spill the beans and let us know the truth?

    • OTD, Your rebbi was right. He was teaching simple peshat. But he did not know that there is a special set with derash that applies to choshuv chazerim with many exemptions for hefsed merubah to “klei koidesh.” Tzei ulimad!

      • So much secret depth to Torah which has been hidden or forgotten for so many years, rachmana litzlan, is being revealed to us by our revered Gedolim shlita. B”H our Gedolim are so learned and can use their brilliant minds together with their breadth and depth of Torah knowledge to discern these Torah truths so that we can all lead lives of Emesdik Torah Yidden by following their Daas Torah and Psak Halachah. /End sarcasm

        • [.] Thank you, Seriously. Does Shabsai Tsvi ring a bell? A tzaddik must descend in order to rise higher, so those who help him descend into moral degradation are doing a mitzvah b’aveirah. Or something like that. The “enablers” were not enabling the abuse of young women, but attempting to enable the ascent of a tzaddik. But Hashem’s ways are inscrutable, and it appears that this would-be tzaddik will be descending much lower than he intended.

    • OTD: Also, your rebbeim weren’t exposed to the clear light of Kabalah, which teaches that as long as you are only doing it to rescue the “nitzotzos of kedusha,” negiah and more is praiseworthy. But zera levatala, without rescuing any nitzotzos of kedusha, is the cause of our long galus.

    • Kevin – You’ve posted this before either here or on another blog and it is LOL funny! Great line! (Even if it does date those of us who are laughing…)

    • Sounds like a case of OTD L’vatala! I wonder if there’s a way to do tshuva for this? Sounds like a shailah for a competent dorm counselor. Yerachmiel can you give me a good referral.

        • Yerachmiel,

          With all due respect, this seems like a very dumb post. I have never heard of anyone, not a single person, who when dealing with a dispute over law (civil) and Torah practices, the defendant says to the plaintiff off the cuff, “Hey, I’ll give you a chance to prove your innocence.” That just sounds weird and it really sounds like the plaintiff doesn’t believe his/her case, and I know that’s NOT true. Meisels is guilty and has a special place in Gehinnom. How do I know that? Because I personally spoke to Rav Shmuel Feurst who said they were goveh eidus from reliable witnesses and their case was foolproof. So, you should also know this because you spoke with the great Truthseeker and some of the other plaintiff’s, so why would you write this? Do you not believe their case? This is really not a good idea for their case and makes it look like it’s on shaky ground. I don’t like this post at all. I don’t care what Eidensohn and his losers say. They can scream until they’re blue in the face, but you shouldn’t make the case against Meisels weak. Who cares what those morons think? Were they goveh eidus? No. With respect, bad move. I agree with curious’s question about this post earlier and I would like you to take this down. From a legal perspective this is not good for the plaintiff. I am also annoyed because I personally commented that this “outcome” was a pretty strong defeat to Truthseeker and her case because none of the other staff were fired or prosecuted, but now to question the whole basis of the case doesn’t make the CBD look good either.

          • With all due respect, I won’t call your comment, “dumb.” I see we agree about the fact that Meisels is quite guilty but that is not obvious to some out there. I am trying to reach some of them by pointing out that if Meisels is being slandered by the CBD he has a tool to improve his image. I am hoping to persuade some of them that he correctly has a lot to fear and that is why he takes advantage of the fact that his dossier at the CBD is held privately.

            • Yerachmiel,

              You are correct. The word “dumb” was a mistake. I misspoke. Please strike it from the record and accept my apologies. The better word would have been misdirected. IMHO, this post is somewhat misdirected. I obviously appreciate you and all you do.

            • There have been a few, very very few, over last two years, YL, who have had the chutzpah to ask you to take a post down. Statistically speaking, this Joseph fellow is not in good company.

              Also, “dumb” and “annoying” as appellations for others’ comments speaks for itself. Motivation, motivation…..

          • Ummm – You do realize that meisels is NOT the plaintiff right? He is in fact the defendant. So that is actually what defendants do .. they try to defend themselves whilst proving their innocence. Defendants actually will bring evidence such as alibi or video or receipts or anything that can prove innocence. But he has brought nothing.

            • Fortune,

              Thank you for missing my point. We are not arguing about the facts of Meisels guilt. He is guilt. Please don’t be annoying and bring me semantics about who is viewed as the plaintiff or defendant. That was not the point I was making. My point was plaintiffs, if it pleases you, the non-Meisels side, do not offer the defendant a chance to prove their innocence outside of court or in some informal way such as this letter. They bring alibi’s or videos in legal proceedings, not like this. They do not refer to the other side’s guilt as a “machlokes,” making all aware that from the plaintiff’s side that there is some type of “doubt” about the guilt of the defendant. This is not arbitration either. This is not done, is not helpful IMHO, and your comment missed the point completely and was caught up in semantics.

            • My post largely avoided the idea that he could resolve his legal problems by opening up the evidence file of the CBD. However, Meisels could help himself establish his innocence of grave crimes in the eyes of undecided onlookers. You can expect the Chicago BD to testify or give depositions and affidavits if the legal case does not get dismissed or settled and it goes to discovery or even all the way to trial. Of course if they only have proof of a few consensual, non-sexual hugs, it will not be a problem for him in defending against charges of rape and attempted rape.

            • FYI- I have changed your name on all your comments to Joseph II so you will not be confused with a long time commenter, plain “Joseph.” If your computer/phone retains your old ID you may have to change it once.

          • Joseph, Lopin thinks and knows that Meisles I guilty. This post was to prove that Meisles I see has ZERO evidence to defend himself. He confessed. I think you’re not looking at this post the correct way. Many think it is brilliant bc it shows that Meisles really has no way of defense.

            And in terms of the teachers…just wait…the entire reason why Touro has not given them accreditation is bc they are demanding someone gets fired.

          • Please don’t be annoying and bring me semantics about who is viewed as the plaintiff or defendant.

            FIRST: Someone who “apologizes” for calling someone elses comment “dumb” can not possibly be sincere if two seconds later they call someone else “annoying” because that person DOES believe that clarification is necessary when one ATTEMPTS to make a point.

            SECOND: Your suggestion that a defendant or anyone who has such allegations pointed at them does not try to prove themselves innocent out of a court or arbitration is INCORRECT. In fact, while Eidensohn is trying to do just that on BEHALF of Meisels (and failing) over the past he has allowed other cases involving divorces post videos, pictures, documents etc .. to attempt and prove their innocence outside of a court or arbitration. IN FACT, we are living in a day and age where it is CONSTANTLY done, that one who has such allegations made at them will post a document or video etc .. anywhere online and attempt for it to go viral to try and prove their innocence. Meisels has the same opportunity. He just has nothing to provide. He has nothing to refute the allegations. But YES he absolutely does, like any other person have the ability to do so AND it is actually within the norm today.

            In summation .. stop using ad hominems to try to even make a point or your point will be lost and ignored in your effort, And frankly, you have yet to make the point you attempt.

  10. Lopin — you’re wasting your time with your open letter.

    He’ll never read it, and even be made aware of it.

    What was the point of it other than to try energize your readers to post comments?

    • You are wrong. He, Eidensohn, Kahane and others regularly read Frum Follies. I have various indications of that. More important is that some of his supporters will be asking for a response and they will have to offer some mealy mouthed excuse which will leave some unpersuaded.

      • After not accepting my last two posts, can you at least post my categorical denial that I am Kahane or anyone else connected with the 4 seminaries or any of the batei din, nor is anything that I have written anything “leaked” by them.

      • So a week later and no response to your post from his camp & supporters to your open letter.

        As I predicted, your post would be ignored. And it was – it didnt move the needle one bit.

        But you got 90 responses from your own supporters, including a number of your own comments. Again, as I predicated.

        Just saying.

        • The point is that Meisels has a way to exonerate himself but won’t exercise it because he knows that full disclosure of the Chicago Beis Din evidence would reveal his very serious sexual assaults.

    • D Rosha –
      You kidding? The Har Nof Community reads this blog carefully. Every word is parsed carefully. The problem is that his followers are cult members and it is very hard reasoning with brainwashed personalities. YL is doing a wonderful job educating people of the Nof who are not cult followers of Meisels.

  11. Once in a land far, far away there lived a group of people called Trids. The Trids were happy except for the huge ogre that lived on the mountain. The ogre would periodically terrorize the Trids.

    The Trids tired of the ogre and sought to reason with him. They thought one of their religious leaders would be a good intermediary. So a group of Trids and their minister went up the mountain and before they could even say one word the ogre kicked them down the mountain. Not being dismayed the Trids thought that maybe the ogre was Catholic, so they sent another delegation, this time led by the local priest. But alas, as they approached the ogre he once again kicked them all down the mountain.

    The Trids were upset until they thought that perhaps the ogre was Jewish. Unfortunately, no Trids were Jewish, so they wrote to the people of another land and asked them to send a Rabbi to help them with the ogre. The Rabbi arrived and led a delegation of Trids up the mountain. The ogre saw them coming and kicked all of them, except for the Rabbi, down the mountain. The Rabbi, having been told of the previous expeditions, wondered why he alone had not been kicked down the mountain, so he asked the ogre. The ogre laughed and replied:

    “Silly Rabbi, kicks are for Trids!”

  12. This post is silly. Meisel’s is currently the defendant in one civil law suit, still potentially exposed to any other claims for which the statute of limitations has not run and according to what the Jewish Week wrote may have broken some laws here in the US. No attorney in its right mind would allow, even a fully innocent man – which he may not be, its client to do what you are suggesting. Trying to view his “turning” down your “offer” as an admission by silence is simply misdirection and not befitting your coverage of this case.

    • It would not be silly if the only information the CBD has is that he hugged two girls consensually, and non-sexually. It would restore his reputation, improve seminary enrollments, weaken the pro-CBD contingent, make a mockery of me and possibly humiliate the plaintiffs to withdraw their lawsuit.

      As for legal advice there are two kinds of lawyers. Those whose answer is always hypercautious and no. then there are those who will counsel the magnitude of risk vs the likely benefit in non-legal arenas.

    • I agree with YL. For Meisels’ attorney, the critical question would be the content of the statements (or testimony, if made under oath or the equivalent) given to the CBD. If nothing more than inappropriate hugging was alleged (an offense against halakhah, but unless Meisels knew the hugging was unwanted, not against civil law), I cannot imagine that Meisels’ attorney would not advise him to consent to releasing that evidence, for the reasons YL spells out.

  13. Someone has to convince the victims to come forward. This piece of smelly garbage Meisels must be put away for a long, long time.

    • In a perfect world, of course victims should come forward. However, in the world we live in where victims get blamed and shamed – it is not an ideal situation. Would you advocate this course of action for your own daughter? Sure you would -not!
      That is why, when victims do come forward, they should be applauded for their courage. It is not an easy thing to do because you have these moronic Meisels enablers harassing them.
      Hopefuly, someone on the Touro Legal Team is reading this and realizes the legal jeopardy that Touro puts itself in by doing business again with Meisels with his staff of enablers still drawing paychecks!

      • It’s not just the Meisels supporters and enablers – it’s the whispers in shul, the shame, the people who wont do shidduchim with ANY sibling in the family because of it. Our society puts a premium on “Reputation” and extends that to siblings. Just the way we say that certain kids are from “good families” – as though we REALLY know what goes on behind closed doors – is all due to the premium we put on outward appearances of “normal.” Nevermind that for all your know the father who is always on time for minyan and looks impeccably dressed, beats the wife and kids, nevermind that for all you know the mother is an alcoholic, or there is a grandparent who gives money to the family and is emotionally abusive and cruel to the children on a consistent basis. Families have all kinds of problems, and you never know until the door is closed what those problems are. Yet the frum world acts as if all information is out there and knowable if you just ask the right people, or the right questions. Some information is out there, but most is not. And the habit of stigmatizing and shaming EVERYTHING that doesn’t appear on the surface to be the picture of perfect, or what is thought to be “normal” is one of the reasons victims will continue to not come forward in the frum world. This goes for EVERY problem out there, not just this one. We are an unforgiving, stigmatizing, highly competitive and perfectionistic society. Sure, someone will cook for your family if you’re sick, or there may be a gamach that can help you out if you need a high chair, a walker or a or wedding gown. But they wont let their kids marry yours if one of your other sons is gay or your brother was rumored to have had an affair. Our high, unforgiving bar keeps people in line, and keeps people towing the line. But there is a cost. It is far from just the Meisels’ enablers and supporters that prevent victims from coming forward, it is our society’s values and structure which inadvertently supports perpetrators, re-victimizes victims and does not support victims because of the fear of stigma and shame for every little thing that doesn’t appear on the surface to be perfect. We chide the outside world for being so materialistic and only into appearances, yet we are far worse. Our women may show less skin in public, and our men may wear suits, but we are more into shallow reputation appearances than any non-Jewish society out there. And make no mistake – that is all it is – appearances. Because underneath every black hat and every shaitel is oily, sweaty matted hair. It just looks nice on the outside and that is all we give credence to.

      • I’m more than fully cognizant of all the issues. If only attitudes would change, if the frum world unite to address these issues in a mature and truthful way, there would be no problem for the victims to come forward. Unfortunately, these changes are not coming any time soon and it is very sad. I realize I am dreaming in technicolor but hopefully that day will come. Having said that, if all the girls in fact came forward together as one, that would cause the greatest impact and it just might change alot of shallow attitudes around these issues and they would all find good shidduchim.

        • Realizing the “If only” will require more people speaking out loud and publicly in support of victims and critically of the gedolim and rabbonim who are making such a hash of this case as they have in most others.

          • People are afraid of speaking out loud, or speaking publically and critically of the gedolim and rabbanim in fear that it could possibly affect their childrens’ shidduchim. And here we have come full circle. Chad Gadya’aaa’aa. The common denominators are always fear of shidduchim and of being ostracized and shamed, the excessive power of the gedolim and rabbanim and our inability to publically criticize them due to…………… fear of shidduchim and of being ostracized and shamed.

            • It’s nearly criminal. but not. The Jews have given over all power to the “lashon hara diktors”. OMG why are ortho jews so unwilling to take power when it comes to protecting their children? why are they so willing to give power to some some alzheimer case like Shteinman, et al.

              Giving up the power is delusionary and horrific. for a frum yid, i guessnit is genetic???? the false gene???

            • Genetics is not a factor. Frum Jews have the same mix of genes as the non orthodox, the same mix of vulnerabilities to the usual Ashkenazi ailments ranging from BRACA to Gaucher’s and Tay Sachs, etc. Notwithstanding the problems and perhaps some strengths, the problem is cultural, not genetic. Otherwise you would see the same problems among Conservative Jews.

              I have no idea if Shteinman suffers from dementia or Alzheimers. But there are plenty of “Gedolim” without mental deterioration who are also deeply problematic. So again, I consider that peripheral, distracting, and somewhat needlessly inflammatory.

              however, i do agree with your other points.

            • Just for the sake of accuracy and truth: There are many Rabbonim but we have few Gedolim living today. The true Gedolim are not defending Meisels.

            • The “true gedolim” are also not defending the victims, they are not out there publically advocating for and protecting the victims, nor doing anything to prevent future victims of Meisels or of anyone like Meisels or of child molesters.

    • Change the frum world’s attitude and reaction to victims, and you will the convince victims to come forward. Change the frum world’s shidduch discrimination and stigmatizing towards victims and their brothers and sisters, and you will convince the victims to come forward. Change the frum world so that people publically support victims and protect victims from the naysayers and the “it was only a hug” claimants, and those who blame the victim, and you will convince the victims to come forward. But until then, victims need to have EXTREMELY strong support systems, an EXTREME backbone, and EXTREME reserves of courage in order to come forward and sustain the onslaught when they do. Most victims were chosen by smart predators because they were NOT from strong families, did NOT have strong support systems, and had other weaknesses. Predators do not attack strong lions, but rather those who they believe don’t have what it takes to fight back. Meisels and sexual predators like him are extremely smart. They take advantage of those who are not the strongest in the pack to begin with, so that they can get away with what they know is wrong.

      • Seriously?, brilliant and on the mark, as usual.
        At the risk of repeating myself several times , (at least, ,but,,, then no one reads me, so i am indulging myself here). repeating not so recently, my take on the shidduch problem, vis a vis abused children or raped young adults, and their extended families, in all directions, a dozen at a clip, unmarriageable) is that,,,,, being that 1 in 4 females and 1 in 6 males (probably LOTS more in ortho schunot) have been abused before age 18,, there is a thriving possible miktsoa for a kind hearted person with initiative, to start a shidduch service, for these “Lepers” of the ortho world. These statistics represent a large number of our precious yidden.
        Therefore, my point, should be super obvious, is to encourage victims to out these molesters, with the CHIZUK that a fair percentage of their kehila is available for nisu’in having been already stigmatized due to personal experience or experience of some distant cousin. What a messed up community, “pen yid’u”. Only the shadchan keeps track. And it aint so easy to get a shidduch nowadays anyway amongst charedim per info from my contacts in that world.

        and in the best of all possible worlds this hypothetical shadchan will be deserving of a very high place in olam haba.

        • Thank you Chashdan. I disagree with you, people do read your comments.

          I’m not sure a shadchan such as you described would work in the Orthodox world, for the same reasons that one would even be necessary for “the rejects” of society.

          But a support group would be nice.

      • The notion that predators know what they are doing is wrong presupposes that predators have a conscience. I would argue that a great many of these two-less animals are sociopaths (aka psychopaths). who never have had and never will have a conscience. What matters to a sociopath is what gives him or her pleasure, money, etc. Good sociopaths know how to manipulate potential victims, appeal to their conscience, and disarm them.
        Over 1% of each population consists of sociopaths.
        There are ways to deal with such animals but the first step is to look for the telltale signs (all of which a certain predator being discussed seems to have), and the 2nd is to make the correct assessment. Then, and only then, can one protect himself / herself and loved ones.

        • 5T Resident – To clarify, I didn’t mean that the predator himself BELIEVES that it is wrong, or feels GUILT for what he has done or would like to do. Only that he knows that SOCIETY believes it is wrong, and that if he is to get away with it and escape justice, he needs need to prey on the weak. Of course it is mostly sociopaths who are sexual predators, as most people who have taiyvos for that which is not available to them, realize that they will HURT others if they were to act out those taiyvos, and as normal in this regard (non-sociopaths) who have a conscience, they avoid such behavior.

          • Seriously?,
            Re Sociopaths, you may learn, b”vo hazman, that their numbers are far far larger than you could possibly imagine. As it were, the outcry against Rabbanim who are often, usually multiple abusers, even extending into many many dozens of victims, is so very necessary (the outcry).
            What the Jewish world has yet to hear, and may never hear, is the outrage from Jewish abused children, abused in their very own homes.
            If you think that it is difficult for victims to come forward, and be stigmatized,
            consider the ramifications of victims of family members. Victims who have never reported. Victims for whom revenge or justice or satisfaction of some sort will never come. Too many years, abusers dead and buried long ago, even other family members do not want to hear about it, and, why, in fact, should they?

            The rebbeim as abusers is just the tip of the iceberg. Once at a shabbos meal I sat next to a young lady, from a Rabbinic family. who told me,. davka me,. of all people, not charedi, that she and a dozen or so sibs and her mother had all been abused by the father. As I understood it, without asking any questions at all, chas v’chalila, that it took many many years until the mother filed for a GET.
            This young lady was of shidduch age, and shared this with me,only, i think, because she knew that I was divorced. Her issue was, “How can one know, distinguish, in advance”. A very good question, I had no words of wisdom for her, unfortunately……

            Further ramifications which clearly were not on her mind, would have been, aleph, how was it that not one relative ever interceded?? large family. Surely many knew???

            But even in tiny families where the perp has no one to out him, the victims in a family situation are far less powerful, than victims of a known abuser.
            They cannot expect help from any source. Afilu if they ever considered reporting.
            I think that the stats re abuse are hugely understated.
            Those who were abused by a family member never told a soul.
            Perhaps not until therapy in their 20’s.
            Numbers are way way too low. Familial abuse is very under-counted. Gam bein stam yehudim and gam bein rabbinical families. The latter are rarely reported, particularly not many years after the fact.

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