Leiby, you did well! We don’t always understand Hashems ways. Sometimes the wicked get away with it. However your courage and exposure of evil will go along way in helping prevent exploration of children in our communities. Thank you Leiby
How dare you??? What right to you have to attack this righteous man??? You think just because he’s Chassidish and his maligner ex-chassidish this makes him automatically guilty???
comment deleted by Yerachmiel Lopin because it violated blog policy of not identifying victim either by name or by description. N’Aron did that about the victim in the Bodenheimer case. Permanent banned from posting on this blog.
Thank God that we can start trusting the justice system.
Can you activist tell me what bar would prove you that as person is innocent? Is EVERY accusation true?
please let us know your policy. Otherwise you’re all phonies.
Acquitted by judge but not by hashem. Unfortunately the court is run by comrade David twersky and his gangsters. A special thanks to the grand rabbi of Texas rabbi nuchem rosenberg shilita for giving his flesh and blood for the safety of children. May you be blessed with health and nachas from your children and einiklich.
Of course an accusation can be false. Do you agree someone who is guilty can be acquitted. For example do you think OJ was innocent of murder because he was acquitted?
Yerachmiel.
You were not there
I was not there
A judge that listened to the evidence found him not guilty.
Is he guilty? I don’t know,but most probably not.
What kind of justice system are we supposed to have, when people like yourself, who at least, addresses people decently or the failedmessiah antisocial jackass, are the “deciders” of justice?
There is a system here that has to be honored.It’s not perfect, but much better than subjective bloggers like the failedmessiah ?”deciding” guilt.
Your analogy to O.J is so off.I don’t know if you remember the case, the day of the murder, how he spent hours eluding the police in his car iirc, how he Nicole his wife was terrified of him,how he had threatened her for a long time.
Here we have a case where we don’t have any reason to believe Taubenfeld is guilty, besides the testimony , which the judge found unconvincing.
Please try to be an honest, objective blogger.Nuchem Rosenberg, cannot, by any stretch be taken seriously
I am in no way a supporter of Child abuse cover-ups nor do I trust the court.
Two cases were decided in the same court in one week, one was acquitted, & the other decided to take plea, which in no way did he admit sexually offending.
The fact he had good council mentioned here, is no way a reason to believe he had his own money to pay for it. He isn’t young, and needs closure, there was no admission to sexual abuse, no matter what the penalty was, it is the better of two evils. Germanic Jews hate taking charity, & would rot in jail rather than having to take others money. I don’t know the man, I have only heard how he beat kids, & obviously he got some beating back over here, like the Yerushalmi in the first mishna in Peoh, says if you do the opposite of gemilas chasodim, you get punished in both worlds.
The fact that physical abuse is sometimes a cover-up, for sexual, was evident in the case of the YU school case, so is it in those Rebbes who hoisted kids across their lap to spank them, and broke their contracts of tvilas Ezra, in the course. However this guy doesn’t sound like that.
Back to the point, in the Tabenfeld (don’t know him either, but I do know Lieby’s brother) case no one posting here trusts the court at all, he had good council, in those Hungarian communities like New Square (not the Russian original), it is no embarrassments to take pidyon shevuyim money, so he could take it to the end.
Punch line: The commenters over here & the site manager are so sure that the one who accepted the plea, is guilty of all the original charges, in spite of the fact that in almost 70 years of his life & most of it in chinuch, no one else has come forward before , during or after the case.
In the Taubenfeld case in spite of being acquitted all commenters, are sure he is 100% guilty, & all the court established was reasonable doubt.
To summarize: Anyone who makes it to the blogs who allegedly committed sex crimes: Has already been convicted in the court of the blogs. The judge , Jury or court know nothing.
Why even bother with court let the blogs throw the guy in jail & toss the keys?
BTW I don’t comment here usually although I have a yetzer Hora to look here, The attitude over here, just ekes me, if the blogs did feel they were doing a service why mess it up?
Lies. Lies. Lies.
First of all there has been a sex offender from New Square that already served jail time. See: Yisuchar Kohn.
Where you in court? I watched the whole trial, which “few” brothers corroborated? There was “one” brother, who’s testimony was bizarre. Saying “dont know” out “next question please” on almost every question, having the judge force him to answer questions. It came out that his child was taken away from him with ” no visitation rights “. That’s what the so called brother of victim is all about. He screamed in court that he hates new square and his motive was just so obvious.
Otherwise there was no corroborations whatsoever. There were four witness of the defense all saying clear that Taubenfeld knew the boy, and the defense didn’t try claiming otherwise. There was a surprise moment in the court room when the prosecuter said that he wants to bring witness that Mr. Taubenfeld know the boy, and the defense attorney said they’re is no need to prove that as we agree to that. It was the prosecution that has that assumption that the defense will claim that. And you were misled by that.
Regarding Rabbi Taubenfelds denial, you weren’t in court to watch the video. I was. He Never denied knowing the sterns. He denied molesting or touching any kid in his life. He was grilled for two and a half hours by the detective and no admission or corroboration came out of his mouth.
The prosecution tried claiming that the fact that when asked if he knew s family stern he answered they’re are many sterns in New Square is an admission of guilt. How stupid.
Are you aware that the kid said that the room was an office, and the defence presented pictures that it was a bedroom for most of the years. Are you aware that the kid said that the door had NO lock, and it was supported with pictures of the defense? Are you aware that the child described the room more from the outside than the inside? Anyone sitting in the courtroom knew one thing clear: this child maybe visited the residence 2-3 times to play as a child and therefore knows a bit. Impossible he was in that house daily for five years.
Did you hear how the kid testified that it happened in middle of the Purim meal with 15 family members around the table, and he took him to the next room without a lock… Come on…..
And besides the fact that the agenda was soooooo obvious. How he hated new square, he fought with his parents to leave etc. etc.
Let me see you having the guts to approve this post.
P.S. There’s way more to write on the craziness of this kids story. I.E. yom kippur, getting 12,000 dollars at age 10 without parental knowledge and much more. I will elaborate if anyone still needs more. I didn’t meet one person that came to court without an agenda that thought that this story is true. I spoke to several onlookers who came to observe, not knowing nothing and coming objectively. NO ONE thought this man is guilty.
You write: “I didn’t meet one person that came to court without an agenda that thought that this story is true.” Sorry, you are assuming you are objective and everyone who disagrees with you has an agenda. With your sort of logic, everything is clear. But you obviously have an agenda in the way you ridicule and narrate. Go on believing what you will but stop fooling yourself.
However, my biggest problem with your long recitation is that there are blatant falsehoods in your portrait of the trial. Contrary to what you write, Taubenfeld never took the witness stand. So please advise us how you know what happened at the trial if you did not attend, and why you should be trusted if you did attend and could be so wrong.
The reason Taubenefled did not take the stand is that it would have opened him up to cross-examination. He could not afford that risk. A tzadik doesnt worry about that risk. He played it well, he had a judge dependent on Skver votes to get elected, and he beat the rap because the burden of proof for conviction is high. I wish the US didn’t force a verdict of either guilty or not guilty, but like Scotland had a third option, “Not Proven” beyond a reasonable doubt.
I was at the trial. Could you quote me where I wrote that he took the witness stand? I wrote what was seen at trial as the tape of Taubenfeld talking to the detectives was played. That’s where he was grilled. Now reread what I wrote.
Could you tell me why to put an innocent man on stand to go through torture? The defense was soooooo obvious that there was no need for the defense attorney to put a person who lost his wife and baby, had his house burned, to suffer one more bit in his life. The lies of the prosecution spoke for themselves.
Regarding my agenda, yes – I have one. To speak for Taubenfelds innocence. I believe that true molesters should be reported and sent to prison. I used to appreciate the work of some activists trying to bring change in our community. I thought you can differentiate between a true or false allegations. I really hope you look in deep in the details of the case, get the transcripts, talk to some people who observed the case objectively and let me see your conclusion. Your bravery to decide that some cases might be false, will only grant you more credibility when you fight true molesters.
Regarding the Scottish idea. I hold like you. I am positive that it would be be “not guilty”, and it would lead all skeptics to see that this man is not guilty. How I wish our court would be able to clear would be able to clear his name fully, something our courts currently don’t do as that only have one verdict for acquittal.
P.S. Btw, you didn’t respond to one argument in the craziness of this story that I mentioned above.
I admire that you posted my previous comment. Let me see you post this one as well, and even agree.
I spoke to some people attending who indeed believed he would be acquitted because the witness was not very articulate and had some other dificits in communication and interaction. However they were convinced of Taubenfeld’s guilt. When I asked those two about the Scottish option, they felt a Scottish jury would probably have voted the charges “not proven.”
Please don’t dray around with the traumatized stuff. Taubenfeld has been active and functional in many respects for well these many years since his trauma.
As we both know, Taubenfeld lives in and by the values and standards of Skver. In his town, being a molester is no disaster. Where else can a man plead guilty to being a molester and still be a teacher of young children. Yet there is TV footage that this is what his brother got to do. In fact in his town you also don’t lose status for being a ganiff or a rotzeach. When the ganovim got out of jail they were welcomed and given kovod. Same will happen for Shaul Spitzer when he is finished with jail for trying to burn down Rottenberg’s house and almost succeeding in killing him. in fact, nothing decided by a goyish justice system matters for your local standing. In fact, in Skver it seems ok to be a rasha on some things that disgust many frum yidden.
As you must know if you understand Skver, there are incredible pressures placed on any victim of sex abuse, grown up or child who dares to speak out. In Skver if you know it, the Rebbe is the final authority. When Mutty Weiss with tears talked to the Rebbe, he finally explained the source of his sorrow, being raped by his rebbe. The response: varf arois die shaygetz (toss out this disgusting goy). And sure enough he was physically tossed.
In Skver, it is considered OK to lie to goyish court to save a yid from jail, even a rapist, arsonist, or crook. And indeed, chasidim sitting in court where convinced several of the defense witnesses perjured themselves.
Give me a trial where witnesses aren’t initimidated and defense witnesses dont perjure themselves, and I will be more confident that the not guilty by a court proves innoncence. I cannot prove anything one way or another. But why should I declare this man is innocent. Let’s agree to call it a sofek. When there is danger, with a sofek one is careful and wary.
Let me ask you something? If another person alleges abuse by Taubenfeld and he either pleads guilty or gets convicted at trial, will you take back your conclusions about Laiby’s allegations.
Yerachmiel, I must admire your openness to hear the other side. I now differ you from other activist who seem not to be able to differentiate between one story or another.
I would love to hear your opinion after you put your hand on the transcripts. I assume you will have the courage to think openly and consider this a phony.
I will not go in to the whole Skver issue you raised, as I don’t believe that this should objectively play in to the decision on analyzing one person’s guilt or innocence. I assume that you also believe that there are good people in Skver as well. (just to correct one error, his brother died NOT teach in New Square. Look at the TV footage again and you’ll see that they all the children about “Taubenfeld”, not saying which one. It is a total different one. Do your research. But in any case this part doesn’t void or approve what you wrote about New Adequate).
The reason I presume Taubenfeld innocence, is exactly for the point you raised. He had taught hundreds of chasanim and there is full support from ALL. I’m sure you can can do your own research. Should Taubenfeld be convicted in a court of law on a different matter I would honor and believe that decision. But honestly this story with Laiby would still need some very very serious thinking how this is possible. I believe you’ve read what I wrote above. How do you explain all that?
Regarding the perjury of the witness, I say in court and I also felt that they might have overdone summer facts. But the core was in tact. I even wanted to tell them why did you need to exaggerate when the basic good. The layout of the house was backed with pictures. His schedule was backed with other witness etc.
You say, why no other complainants in court given his contact with hundreds of children. It is a fact well known that most abuse victims never come forward till decades later. In fact many never share their stories with anyone till decades later. Those are statistics in the secular world. But in the haredi world there is enormous social pressure not to publicly complain let alone go to the criminal justice system. In most Hasidic communities that brands you as a moiser. Then you kids get kicked out of school, you lose jobs or businesses, you get kicked out of shul. In Skver, you may also have your house burned down. So please don’t use the absence of other complainants as proof there are no other victims.
The video was clear about which Taubenfeld and it was a yeshiva for younger boys. MM Taubenfeld did not teach younger boys. He was a shoel umeishiv for older boys in halacha. So yes, H Taubenfeld, a convicted molester was allowed to teach young boys (looked about 8 in TV footage) after a conviction for child molesting.
I spoke of perjury by defense witnesses. You speak about “overdone.” Overdone is a nice polite expression for lying. Don’t you have to wonder why a defense would have to lie. You refer to other defense evidence- how do you know what was true and what was false?
How sad this site is. Taubenfeld is acquitted and you say, so? Doesn’t mean that he is not guilty. Bodenheimer pleads guilty and you say, see, he molested a child. I’d say, hey, judge felt that Taubenfeld is innocent. Maybe. Poor Bodenheimer, he may be innocent, but was warned that if prosecuted he would face jail time, possible get killed in jail, and all because accused molesters are often guilty until proven innocent. Right, some will say that no innocent man would willingly plead guilty. I say that one sad tombstone reads “here rests a man, murdered in jail, bravely willing to go to jail so as not to besmirch his name”.
If you read what I said carefully it’s not what I said. I was only frowning upon those that did the opposite, used the guilty please to condemn but to just make away with the judges decision. don’t get me wrong. A child molester is the dregs of society, a rodef, and deserving of all the scorn and aggression heaped on him. But, we can’t assume that EVERYONE is ALWAYS guilty to the point that we are prepared to ruin his life based on any accusation to the point that we judge him guilty both ways (above).
Thanks for the good work, in helping keep the community clean and responsible.
As someone who was sexually abused as a child, and as a father of 4 children wanting to see a change in how our community is taking care of these problems, I was attending this trial with an open mind. Wanting to see how justice is being served.
As the trial progressed, and facts were established, my opinion is that Taubenfeld is innocent beyond any reasonable doubt!
I couldn’t agree with the judge more, and I’m sure that should we have the Scotland system the Judge would find him Not Guilty too.
To point out each and every detail that broad this conclusion would be hard, but I will point out some of the factors:
Leiby said it happened in an office on the right side of the home, on an office table. Dated pictures and four witnesses accepted as evidence show that there was no office in the home at that time what so ever.
Leiby said he stayed at the Taubenfeld residence almost every day between 5-8. There were two witnesses confirming that they got paid to take care of Leiby in these hours, every single day. ( A classic case of הזמה…)
Leiby said he got $20 everytime, when asked what have you done with the money he said ” I saved it.”
So the lawyer makes him aware that it totals at least $12,000 a year. Leiby changed and said I was spending it on books in the only bookstore in Skver. The bookstore owner testifies that Leiby never bought a single book in his store. (He remembers he used to borrow books and not bring them back)
Leiby admitted that Nuchim Rosenberg prepared him before the trial, while the trial is going on and even before he went to the police for the first time he met with activists.
Leibys story was very robotic, it sounded like a Mishnah that he studied well and knew it by heart.
Leiby said many times that he was wrong with what he said at the grand jury, “I’m sorry” and one time he said that the court stenographer typed it wrong.
Leiby said that in 2003 the abuse intensified, and he was abused a few times a week. But the passport of Mr. Taubenfeld shows that he was out of the country for an extended time in 2003, due to the tragic incident with his wife. Then he was in Boston for a very long time.
Leiby said things that are unlikely to believe, for example:
“That it happened Purim, Yum Kippur” To me this makes it more unlikely to believe.
That every day “sperm came out” at the age of 8???
That he went to Taubenfeld for support after the Sep 11 attacks??? An eight-year-old?
He went to him because he was a marriage counselor. There was testimony that he was not a marriage counselor at that time. (My eight-year-old son would never know who is a marriage counselor, and when he is worried about something he would talk to me, not to neighbors)
Leiby said he came forward in 2010 because of inspiration from the Movie “Zero Dark Thirty.” when the lawyer points out that Zero Dark Thirty was released in December 19, 2012, Lybe argues back that he is right and the lawyer is wrong.
His testimony is the only evidence in this case, the testimony did not feel credible in the first place, and everything he said was contradicted with testimony and pictures from others. There was not any other evidence in this case. To me, I don’t see why I should even have a Sufak.
Character witnesses testified that Taubenfeld is someone with an excellent reputation in the community, teaches a few 100 students over the last few years, and there are only good stories on him.
I would like to encourage the DA to continue to help the community’s children by bringing charges against child abusers. I don’t understand why they choose the wrong cases to prosecute.
According to some commenters, it looks like they think 1) that people are presumed guilty until proven innocent. 2) Innocents can never be proven.
Not having access to the transcript, I am inquiring with a trustworthy trial observer and will reply here when I have more information. However, there was some apparent perjury by those who claim to have been with Laiby every day for years but could not produce a shred of corroborating evidence that this happened or proof they ever did the same for any other kid in skver, ever.
Yerachmiel
please don’t use the failed jackass soneh yisroels logic?
Look at this example: “. In fact in his town you also don’t lose status for being a ganiff or a rotzeach. When the ganovim got out of jail they were welcomed and given kovod. Same will happen for Shaul Spitzer when he is finished with jail for trying to burn down Rottenberg’s house and almost succeeding in killing him.”
I”m referring to what you claim that to be a rotzeach does not mean loss of status AND YOU PROVE THAT POINT BY YOUR OWN WISHFUL THINKING! Spitzer has NOT yet been released, so we don’t know how he”ll treated, right? You obviously HOPE he”ll get a hero’s welcome so it”ll prove your point,BUT, it has not yet happened so your point is illogical and mute,
An 18 year old impressionable kid is not a rotzeach, he did not mean to kill anybody, he was a very immature stupid kid, just like you and i may have been.The Failed jackass cannot understand subtle and not such suble things.You can,So quit being disingenuous.
You nor moshe pipik nor almost anybody else besides the accuser (if he does in fact know) and Taubenfeld.The rest in conjecture, the type the obese failed jackass likes to do.
Rest assured that I think Skver has many, many things that need change. and it will change, just like change and sunshine have come everywhere,Yet, i do think and ive met many from skver that they are mostly good decent, hard working people
When Rottenberg was hospitalized with 3rd degree burns on 50% of his body, nobody apologized on behalf of community. Instead there were flyers to say tehillim for spitzer the arsonists.
I did foolish things as a seventeen year old. But never in my wildest imagination would I have considered setting fire to a house. Never. I certainly thought only shkotzim did things like that.
If the past is any precedent, spitzer will get the welcome home. He also got a jail visit by the Rebbe that was publicized. No sex abuse victim in Skver ever reported consoling words from the Rebbe.
I have no doubt that there are wonderful people in Skver who do not commit arson, or sexually abuse. However, the culture of Skver is dominated by the Rebbe and the ethos of not accepting or respecting civil authority. Moreover, I assume that in Skver, like in most of the world, sex abusers are a small proportion of the population. But they cause more harm because they are not put away soon enough to prevent them from having more victims.
yerachmiel, u yourself wrote about an urge you had when you were young at a camp, remember?
Young people do silly things, i highly doubt that spitzer wanted to kill anybody.
Anyway, i want to be able to read and respect the blog, not to feel that you have a bone to pick with frum people .I don’t think frum people are perfect,i know that everyone can have an evil inclination that brings them down.i know that internet sunshine has cured many ills.I don’t want this blog to be like the failed anti social misfit and his commenters, who hate , hate, hate,Frum Jews worldwide and Israel.Some of his scum actually said hitler was right, regarding Chareidim.
Don’t allow your blog to turn into that.Please
I indeed wrote about being sexually abused in camp sometime before HS by several boys together when I wasn’t even bar mitzvah. I wrote I was tempted at one point to touch another boy sexually but stopped before it got that far. Luckily for me I did not go down that path. But had I, I would have been lucky to have been caught ASAP so I could be treated. As it was I never abused, but I did carry a psychological burden and it was decades before the first time I even recognized the emotional weight and actually cried. So I am not sure how my report is grist for you except as a dig.
Shaul was ~17. He deliberately carried a can of gas to the house of dissident. He set the house on fire, burnt Mr. Rottenberg with 3rd degree burns over half of his body. You are treating it like he was once tempted to light a match on the street. Sorry, that is not a reasonable comparison. Mah inyan shemita aitzel har sinai?
What is this chazerai about the hate againsts Jews. I love Jews and Judaism. I have great respect for those who who are erlich. Since when is a good Jew supposed to be indifferent to the abuse of children, theft or murderous arson? People like you who rationalize it are a disgrace to Yiddishkeit.
Yerachmiel,
Are you saying i’m a disgrace to yiddishkait?
Why the ad hominem?
Are you taking a page from failed scottys book?
I did not rationalize anything.I put things in context.A 17 OR 18 year old can do silly things because of a lack of maturity,There are scientific studies about the brain not becoming totally functional till about 20.Young teenagers have driven cars at very high speeds causing terrible damage,. My point was that when the young Spitzer firebombed the house his maturity level did not tell him that he could actually kill people.
Again don’t choose the dufuses path, if you want any credibility that is. If you don’t, continue taking pages out of the failed ass, who’s own grandfather was a REAL mobster, the Al Capone of St Paul
The mark of a good Jew is to follow the model of Dovid Hamelech and Yehuda. When confronted with sexual misconduct one admits it and takes corrective action rather than blaming others. Dovid did not attack nosson the navi. Yehuda said Tamar is more in the right than me.
You are busy attacking Shmarya Rosenberg of Failed Messiah. It is true that he hates much of the Haredi community, but he reports a lot of truths that demand a tikkun, not a cover up. The best defense for the frum world is to fix the problems, not to call him names.
Believe me, when the frum world does a good job of confronting sex abuse, I will save myself the aggravation and work of running this blog.
There is a reason that so many frum people read Shmarya’s blog, Failed Messiah. That want to know the truths that their own publications conceal. They read him even though they don’t like his attitude to the frum world.
Attacking the messenger of unpleasant truths is a disgrace to Yiddishkeit. Many also attacked the neviim. We side with the messages of the neviim not with those who attacked them. You are who you are. But attacking the messenger is a disgrace to yiddishkeit. It is a flight from the emes.
A recent New Square newsletter mentioned a party thrown on behalf of Spitzer even though he is locked up in absentia.
Skver is like organized crime. They sit around with their Sopranos size schnapps glezelach toasting Salut-leChaim for the consigliere-hoiz bucher who got pinched into tfisa.
There is a Monsey askan originally from Switzerland by the way who was fighting with the Rebbe for years about his “chassidim” operating porno shops in Rockland County.
There is something even worse than that going on right now which no one has had the baitzim to stop. It may boil down to Satmar Williamsburg going up there to put a stop to it since it is a michshol for chassidim of every stripe, and Satmar is usually proactive (for both good & bad).
I don’t understand why Spitzer became the issue of this post. No one is disputing Spitzer as a criminal.
Regarding the people who worked with Lybe, they had pictures of Lybe in their Home, they also sounded very credible with all the details.
After listening to the case in court I think people who are claiming Taubenfeld = OJ Simpson have a blind agenda to support every story against anyone in the community, even against people who are more likely to be NOT guilty.
I think this is harming the progress that child activists have achieved in the community. They come across as very biased and unfair.
The facts presented, in this case, are screaming NOT GUILTY. Let us work on getting the real abusers off the streets, not the innocent.
I wish I had access to the complete transcript. If I did I would take the time to read them through to the end. Unfortunately, the NYS system is that private companies produce the official transcripts and charge thousands of dollars for them. But were anyone who has them to share them with me, I would read them through to the end, and reflect in this blog on what I conclude. At this point I am limited to what was reported and to the observations of those who attended the sessions I am conducting inquiries with observers I find objective, including some who were convinced of Taubenfeld’s guilt but also felt that the verdict should have been not guilty because the case wasn’t adequately supported at the trial.
I speak about Spitzer because it helps show the attitudes of the Skver community about controlling any challenge to authority. That supports my claim of the tendency to and effectiveness of witness intimidation in Skver.
You are certain of Taubenfeld’s innocence. So were many African Americans certain about OJ as were many others convinced of his innoncence. It nicely illustrates the problem of people coming out with categorical statements which may reflect their biases. And those with the opposing opinions had more detailed info because of the very detailed reporting.
I think people will go on disagreeing about this trial. But even those who believe he is guilty are accepting that the verdict in court must be accepted limaiysah.
I will continue to seek and review more information. For the moment, not with certainty, but with strong inclination, I believe he was probably guilty but the case had weaknesses in presentation that may have justified that verdict by a judge or a jury. But that is a tentative statement, not one that I am committed to until I know more.
Yerachmiel,
1. Although you don’t answer on all my questions. You pick and choose which to address, I will answer all of them.
Regarding the abused coming forward. I am born and raised in a hasidic community. While you’re right regarding coming forward, your wrong regarding rumors. Or in the words of chazal “קלא דלא פסיק”. In our communities there would be rumors if a person is molesting children. This is where our communities are at fault. We know who they are, and choose to protect them, or to the most handle them at our own. If Rabbi Taubenfeld would have molested other children, then there would at least be rumors within the community, and there is no. There would be people saying “who knows” etc. Having so many students step up to innocence shows something. I agree that that’s not proof, however it at least corroborates to what I saw at trial, that this man is innocent.
Regarding Taubenfeld teaching. Please reread what I wrote. I never wrote that the kids are referring to Moshe Menachem Taubenfeld, I wrote that they are referring to a “different” Taubenfeld. I stand by my words. Please do your research. Hershel Taubenfeld “never” taught and still doesn’t teach young kids in New Square. There are more Taubenfelds than those two. If you don’t have the capability to do this minor research in New Square, then you’re off. I thought you still have your reliable sources.
Regarding what I wrote on overdoing and you call it lying. I will quote an example and let the readers decide. When his daughter said that I breathed with my father every breath, we all know that’s impossible. But it’s self understood that she meant to say that I was around with him almost always. These were the kind of words that I would want our readers to decide if that deems a person lying. And btw, if overdoing is a sign of perjury than whew did Laiby do perjury. Even if someone in the court room would have an agenda to think that there was some abuse, is just impossible it was too the extent that Laiby described. You can’t choose double standards.
5.Now I see another onlooker above, Greenbaum, agrees to my assumptions. Now Yerachmiel, you weren’t there. I’m still waiting to debate someone that was there that holds differently. As I wrote in the beginning, not 1 person I met there held differently (besides Nuchem Risenberg and Waltzer who were publicly active without having your capabilities of differentiating right and wrong).
Bottom line, Yerachmiel, I am convinced that after you review the transcripts we will have no argument. You won’t be embarrassed to come out and say: listen, I retract. Or communities have failures, we must correct then. But this was just against an innocent man shot in friendly fire.
when you write a lot, it is hard to answer everything. I have taken the liberty of numbering your statements (without, otherwise, changing a single word to make it easier for me and others to be clear about what we are responding to.
Indeed, kolo delo pasuk is halachah allowing one to disqualify a shochet or a teacher, according to the shoel umeishiv. However, there are many cases in the chasidish and yeshivish communities where molesters were allowed to continue as teachers for decades in spite of kolo delo pasuk. Skver has a history of supressing and punishing those who complain about abusers. So lets not assume that it works. The only case of someone cut down somewhat was Heshy Breur (aka Brier). You also know that kolo delo pasuk only works if the murmurs are not shot down with screams of loshon horah. We both know it is permitted to repeat certain unfavorable facts to protect others. But the fashion in the frum world is to usually use loshon horah to suppress such talk. That is especially true in Skver.
I spoke to people who were with the TV reporter that day. It is clear that the kids were referring to Hershel Taubenfeld. And Hershel Taubenfeld was definitely a yeshiva ketana teacher. I am disappointed in your inaccuracy.
I detailed what I considered perjury, and I am not referring to such images and expressions. I never said and I was not referring to such figures of speech.
Yerachmiel,
I appreciate your adding numbers to my comment.
At first I would like to answer in order of your numbering:
A. I just disagree on the facts you’re writing. There are rumors on more than one person. Way more. Correct, our communities shuns and try to stop, and therefore your work is greatly appreciated. However there are MANY rumors, and Taubenfelds name is CLEAN. Do your homework. I understand your position, but I choose to disagree. I hope you accept that.
B. Please Yerachmiel, do your research. Independently. I’m sure you have inner New Square sources that tell you the truth. I challenge you to verify it by Hershels victim alone. He does NOT teach in any school currently (and never taught, just did some private tutoring that he currently also doesn’t do). Those kids are referring to a different Taubenfeld. Take into account the lack of English communication between the cameramen and the kids. I don’t expect you to respond on this instantly, as I assume your research can take time.
C. I don’t write what you wrote. I explained my position where they over did it.
2) When I write that you choose your responses, I was referring to the flaws in the testimony that you choose not to address. However I read what you wrote above that you’d like to analyze yourself the full testimony. I appreciate your openness to limiting your opinion to your current data. Please take into account that I did attend the trial. Can you have one the people that you spoke with, and presumed he’s guilty blog here?
I have inside sources in all of the major Charedi communiites in the US, except Skver. It is the most insular of all the chasidishe kehilos (with the exception of Lev Tahor, if you want to dignify them with the label, a chasidus). Instead I rely of those who have left the community (some who are still frum and some who aren’t). Some of them retain inside contacts useful for info on who occupies what roles, what the takkanos are, etc. But even they can’t get anyone inside to talk about the dark secrets (which all communities have to some degree).
So, it is hard to say there was a kolo delo passuk (persistent rumors) or not. There is a long history in Skver of kicking out people who dare to raise sex abuse. Mutty Weiss went to the Rebbe when he was about 18 and still wearing the levush. His yechidus was going well and the Rebbe was warm and sympathetic as he shared difficulties in his life UNTIL he said he was raped by his rebbe in yeshiva (8th grade iirc). At that point the Rebbe abrubptly shouted “varf die shaygetz arois” (throw out this disgusting non-religious bum). And he was instantly, bodily thrown out of the room and the building. Can’t you see why even rumors would have a hard time spreading under those conditions. Skver is a locked down, closed society.
However, I do know a shocking fact. I have spoken to people in Footsteps, including some with good ongoing relationships with their chasidish families in Brooklyn and Monsey. Among many factors driving the OTD decision is sexual abuse which the community refused to deal with. The shocking observation about Skver was that while somewhere around a 1/3 of those coming from other communities reported being molested as kids, almost all those from Skver reported being molested.
I am still in the process of collecting and assessing more information about the trial. Obviously multiple complainants make a case more credible but the lack of others I AM AWARE of does not prove innocence.
Let me give you an interesting example, Nechemya Weberman. I have a list of known sex offenders who no one was ever willing to publcily accuse but there is a kolo delo passuk. I never heard a word about any such thing about Weberman. the day after he was arrested I spoke to a Williamsburg source who was in shock. This source had actually helped me identify other abusers and knew Nechemya and liked and respected him. The source could not believe it about him. Eventually, some six women talked to the DA about his sexual abuse. Another informed activists inside Satmar had a list of ten known victims. Yet there were no rumors before then. However some people knew, specifically the lead dayanim, askanim and the two Satmar Rebbes. I say that because the women or their male relatives had directly gone to these Satmar leaders and shared their terrible stories. And there weren’t complaints from just anyone. some of these were from some of the most choshuv Satmar families. In each case, they were given sympathy and assured the whole thing would be stopped. Of course it wasn’t and Weberman was allowed to continue as a member of the vaad hatznius and as “Torah therapist” with teen girls and boys forced to see him by the Satmar and Pupa yeshivas.
But at least in Satmar, the stories came out after he was arrested. But Satmar is the wild west compared to Skver. Nobody in Satmar, even in KJ, ever got his housed burned for davening in another minyan. To this day, the rebbe has never apologized to Rottenberg. When he was critically ill with 3rd degree burns, no tehillim were organized for him. Instead the kehilla had its members say tehillim for the arsonist. Anyone in Skver who wants to go on living there would have to be nuts to start talking about sex abuse. That is ossur.
So, the fact that others have not come forward to me or other anti-abuse activists is not proof that there were no others. I am not saying it proves he is guilty, just saying I would not be surprised if there were others, but the stories did not come out.
My comment was about sending girls to Weberman which all happened before he was arrested some years ago. I also know that Ahroinis also won’t eat the hisachdus meat unless they are in Otisville.
If ” the case had weaknesses in presentation that may have justified that verdict by a judge or a jury” why do you continue to “believe he was probably guilty”?
If it is because of your claimed ” tendency to and effectiveness of witness intimidation in Skver” does that mean that every person in Skver who was/will ever be accused is automatically guilty?
I was listening to the case, to every word that was said in court. The allegations did not make any sense to me in the first place and they were contradicted by witnesses, pictures, experts and by common sense.
Do you understand my argument that when child activists continue to scream OJ Simpson and Guilty because of Skver on such a case they are losing credibility?
Being molested as a child is terrible! It’s a crime and needs to be taken care off in the strongest possible ways!
Being falsely accused with molesting a child is terrible! Its unfair! Continuing to scream guilty or Sufak when there is nothing to support it should be condemned in the strongest possible ways!
So you are saying you would entrust children with Taubenfeld because you are certain he is innocent. You are so absolute. I have never known a trial where there were not good points on both sides. Prosecutors abort such cases well before trial. Defendants take plea bargains well before trials. I am curious, can you admit to any weaknesses in the Taubenfeld case. If so, what are they. If none, either the DA is the biggest of fools or you are not an objective observer. which is it?
So your argument now boils down to the fact that the DA pursued the case. That’s the sign of guilt. While I understand your issue here, and the DA usually knows how to pick their battles, here they were wrong.
Why? A great question. But not enough to assume guilt.
I wondered the same sitting at trial. I think you raised a valid point.
Here is one theory. We all know that the DA had great difficulty pursuing cases in our community. Victims are being harassed, and end up not going to trial. The fact that they finally got a kid ready to take the stand misguided them, toppled with the fact that those Brooklyn activist came to the DA again and again (something that came up very clearly at trial, for four years in a row the DA didn’t want to pursue the case and then took upon it. Laiby came to the detectives and the DA together with those activists). The media pressure was also enormous.
This is just one hypothesis that I can suggest.
To summarize while I agree that you raised a valid point, it doesn’t show guilt… Who knows why they pursued it…
I have some familiarity with the DAs. They don’t pay attention to the anti abuse activists. I wish it was otherwise. But on this I am well informed. The DAs in Brooklyn and Rockland county are political creatures. I don’t know about their chehbon hanefesh but they sure know how to count votes. Seriously, how many votes can a DA lose because Nuchem Rosenberg publicly attacks them. At the very most, a few hundred. OTOH, the askanim of Skver can deliver 99% of their ~2,000 votes. The askanim of Monsey can deliver enough votes to decide the election in a county where the total vote in the last presidential election, iirc, was ~82,00 votes. So, no, I don’t think the DA would pursue a case to make Nuchem Rosenberg or me happy. Halevai it was otherwise. but it isn’t.
REGARDING THE ROLE OF NUCHEM AND HIS ASSOCIATES IN BRINGING THE CASE: I have real time info on that role in first bringing the case to the DA. Laiby was indeed given support in going to the local police to lodge his complaint. The police were very professional. After the brief initial contact and statement of an allegation, they interviewed Laiby with no advocates present, per the professional policy in the CJ business. When they realized they needed a Yiddish translator, they brought in their own translator and did not rely on Nuchem Rosenberg or his associate.
Just another example is Brooklyn DA, Kenneth Thompson. Among his issues in running against Hynes was the claim that Hynes was deliberately going easy on Haredi child molesters. Yet while running for office he hired Yossi Gestetner to work for his campaign. Everyone in the anti-abuse community despises Gestetner who is the PR guy for all sorts of Haredi menuvalim including Yisroel Moshe Weingarten (serving 30 years for raping his daughter), Nechemaya Weberman (serving a sentence of 45 years) Moishe Turner (convicted of ~8 acts of anal rape), etc. If Thompson was afraid of Nuchem would he have given a no jail deal to a man provably guilty of throwing bleach in his face. Instead, these days you find Thompson attending the kislev events of both Satmar Rebbes, going to their chasunas and being buddy-buddy with Lipa/Leo Friedman and Gary Schlesinger and even Ben Barber of Bobov, chief BP chasidish schnorer for former DA Hynes.
DA’s don’t like bad publicity of any sort. But I strongly doubt any of them would give more weight to Nuchem Rosenberg than to the Haredi bloc vote most of which is controlled by the Rebbes and their askanim.
I was sexually molested and victimized as a child. As painful as it is for me to write that, I just want to point out that please don’t question my objectivity regarding this issue. If something, I’m usually biased for the victims. The DA just didn’t have a case here…
I think there is no greater harm that can be done to victims, then bringing senseless cases for a trail. Why? Because it ends up going not guilty and is discouraging all the real victims from coming forward.
I think that activists who continue to make the impression as if everyone who is accused by someone is guilty, even if the story does not make any sense, even if there are no other stories, and even if they were found NOT GUILTY in court- these activities are destroying their trust in the community and are reversing much of the progress and the awareness we’ve made.
Yes, if you ask me the DA is very foolish that they were bringing this case! A DA who brings such a case is a big fat fool! They are not really doing their job in representing the people!
I think they did it do to the pressure of the media, the pressure of activists like Nuchem Rosenberg and others. And they were fighting as hard as they could to get him guilty not knowing how bad this is going to play out in court.
Tom Zugabe the DA said something like this in Vus is Nies: “With regard to Mosha, here is the victim says us one thing the media another thing. We listened to his story difficulte story, 13 years old the case is, no forensics in the case, the entire case rests on one individual, we put him before the grand jury. We believed the story.
I think some offices won’t proceed with such a case based on the victim’s testimony alone, we are not concerned with conviction rates! ”
In my opinion, they were bringing this case do to pressure, and they shouldn’t of do that. They should care about convictions!
Mosha Toubenfeld was abused, vilified, embarrassed, by this DA for apparently nothing!
Let me point out some of the things I observed in court. But before going into technical details let me first said that the tone, body language, and contradictions every 2 minutes and constant lies of the boy made me be very skeptical about this case even before I heard the defence side of the story.
1) He claimed it happened in an office on the right side of the house.
1-1 It was proven in court (with many dated images, and four witnesses) that there was no office in the house at that time!
1-2 It seems like he was never in the back half of the house, and didn’t know where the bedroom and other rooms were. Corroborates with the fact that he never went to the back.
1-3 When he was questioned how the hallway goes he said “right and left north south east and west.” The images and blueprint show the hallway going in only one direction.
2) He said he went to Taubenfeld because he is a leader and one of the most powerful people in Skver and that he was a marriage counselor at the time.
2-1 It appeared in court that he is not an official Rabbi, not involved in leadership. Does not have any real power. Just a very respected man that remains in control after pain and suffering, so people learn from him. That is the only power he has.
2-2 He started his job as a marriage counselor much later. Wasn’t a counselor at that time.
2-3 My 8-year-old kids don’t know who is doing what for Parnusah – To me it’s kind of funny for someone to claim that as an 8-year-old he sought the support of a marriage counselor.
4) He claimed that by eight years old sperm came out, he was 100% sure about this and said it had a very distinct smell.
4-1 I spoke to a pediatrician who said it’s not possible. Then I spoke to a pediatric urologist who said it is extremely rare.
5) When asked to list all the children that were living in the house at that time, he did not remember them. It’s absurd how he didn’t know the family names. If he was there daily….?
6) He didn’t mention any any change in house after killing of Goldy, in the time that there was significant construction and change in the house.
7) He didn’t describe the abuse to no therapist. He started describing the abuse AFTER he met the activist. This reveals that there was activists help involved.
8) The reputation Mr. Taubenfeld is excellent. No other rumors at all. He continues to teach grooms before marriage, and no one in the community is having a problem with that.
9) The dates claimed and the details are like a Novel. No simple times, all holy or extreme. No simple abuse, everything all the way. Sep 11. Yum Kipper. Purim. Chizuk to come fwd from a movie (that did not even existed at the time)
10) No grooming involved. There was an expert in court stating clearly that usually there is grooming involved.
11) No teacher alertness, throughout the years, although he went to special school that should look out. He did not go to a New Square school. Ohr Vedaas would have reported had they heard it, or suspected.
12) He lied that he was by Taubenfeld steady, as those people who sounded very credible testified and even had pictures to show.
13) He admitted that he said he will make millions out of this. Here is a clue about the Motive.
14) He said he bought books with the at least $12000. The store owner testified that he did not buy a single book. The fact that he lied what he did with the money showed he had no money.
15) He lied about the release of the movie and even the killing of bin laden was actually after he went to the police. He argued it was before….
16) The fact that he didn’t describe the house well at all leads rather to think that the last time he even played inside was when he was very young… Not at age 13, rather at age 10, after Goldy was killed.
17) Even according to Lybe the room had no lock. So he abused him in a house full of people and didn’t even bother locking the room? How much sense does that make?
18) Mr. Taubenfeld was not at home for much of 2003 when Lybe said it happened almost every day!
The cause of fighting abuse does not justify comparing a person who was found not guilty by the judge and whoever was in court without an agenda was convinced on his innocence- comparing him to OJ is an Avlah Gadulah.
While we fight sexual abuse in our community, let us STOP ABUSING Mr. Taubenfeld who is apparently an innocent man who went through hell!
I have addressed many of the points you are raising in my responses to others. I will look into the new points you raise. I do not agree that a convicing case was made that he is innocent though it is possible that the trial did not make a good enough case to convict “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
I want to comment on things people are saying about what Laiby should have remembered. I don’t know the truth in this case and I was not at the trial. But let me share some things about what I remember about something else.
When I was in BY HS I was in therapy for two years for some problems with school and with my family.
I went almost every week. I remember the face of the therapist and the hair and the usual color of the clothing. I remember an usual tissue box and the route I took to get there. I remember a window I could see from my chair. I remember her sitting a few feet away and an unusual notebook she used that had a hinge on the ttop.
i do not remember the numnber of windows. I do not remember the art on the wall. i do not remember the furniture even the chair I sat on, other than it had arms. I do not remember the color of the walls, whether there were curtains or shades on the windows, where the door was in the room, and what was on the floor. I remember the address but not how the front of the building looked. There so many details I cannot remember. Yet I remember every time afterwards, even when I was late, I would stop at a store for a soda.
If for some reason, I had to testify, I would have to admit not remembering all sorts of things. But I definitely was there almost every week. I do remember how she started off the first time explaining why I was there, but I do not remember many of the tings either of us said.
this was thereapy which was helpful to me. I do not know what i would remember if I was being traumatized each time.
And I was older than Leiby during the period considered in the trial. I am just saying that certain kinds of memory issues don’t prove lying. Not saying they prove he was telling the truth. Just saying it does not prove anything.
But Laiby said “he did remember”. Had he said that he doesn’t remember you’d been right. Could you imagine remembering that the room had beds instead of sofas or vice versa. Laiby just remembered everything. And said that he’s hundred percent positive. And was just wrong.
No one pointed to the fact that he didn’t remember. The point is that he said facts that were just lies and false.
Laiby was quite clear about remembering some thing and not noticing or remembering other things. Your certainty that he is lying is based on testimony of defense witnesses. But as I have pointed out, at least some of them perjured themselves and others may have. They certainly were motivated to protect Taubenfeld. They were nogeiah bidavar and a number of them would have been excluded as witnesses by a beis din for that reason. So it gets circular. You know they are lying because Taubenfeld’s witnesses said so, etc. If you have a full trasncript, I would be glad to post a link to it (as long as it is legal and does not violate any commercial rights of the transcription service. I would welcome an open discussion of the case. However, your arguments about lying are not persuasive.
Dear Readers,
I think I’ve exhausted for now, and will refrain from writing on this topic unless something new arises. I.E. Yerachmiel gets the transcript etc.
I would like to end with a compliment on Yechiels work in general to help protect victims, and bring on change on our community. I think that Yerachmiels strong desire to protect children, tilts him more to consider guilty. Or in the words of Chaza”l “אהבה מקלקלת את השורה”.
We both agree that the guilt here is in question. Yerachmiel didn’t attend trial while I did. Yerachmiel admits and would love to see more.
We only differ on the conclusion. While I believe (and the same applies to several other neutral onlookers I spoke to) that Taubenfeld is innocent beyond reasonable doubt, Yerachmiel has difficulties reaching such a conclusion on the limited info he has. I reserve the right to believe he would reach the same conclusion as myself had he attended trial fully, or read the transcripts.
Keep up your work, Yerachmiel!
ודע כי על כל אלה יביאך ה’ אלקיך במשפט
Make sure not to ruin innocent people’s lives on your way to your cause!
From the very beginning of your reactions you regarded anyone not convinced of Taubenfeld’s innocence as a a mindless hater. In your first comment by “I was at the trail [sic]” you wrote:
Now a message to,
“ALL Jew haters:
ALL Orthodox Jew haters:
ALL Hasidic Jew haters:
ALL Self hating Jews:
All so called child advocates:
All so called child protectors:…”
You took the position that anyone who believed Taubenfeld, a man indicted by the DA, could only have been charged and had the charge believed because of antisemitism.
I call you a bigger antisemite if you would rather risk children being raped than even consider the possibility that any accusation could be true. Are you mamash saying there can be no chsash (suspicion) unless one hates Jews and Hasidim. Are you accusing me of that? If so, spit it out.
Sorry! But NO! This was not written the very beginning of my reactions to the trial. It was the last comment (out of close to TEN) I wrote after hearing the closing arguments from both sides, before the verdict and PREDICTING AN ACQUITTAL! And yes anyone sitting through the trial and wanted otherwise IS A HATER or DUMB AS A WALL! No, this is not just beyond reasonable doubt.
ALL the so called child protectors/advocates were not even shocked at the verdict, it was expected.
I’ll even share with you a little secret. The DA also knew what’s coming, and told the accuser the night before the verdict, THAT HE SHOULD NOT SHOW UP AT THE VERDICT! They knew what’s coming.
Now I’ll just share with all of you my opinion why I think the DA decided to take this case(against the opinions of his own investigators). We all know elections are coming up, and he did not want to face the fire of critique that he stands with the Orthodox Bloc Vote so he took a case against them. But he couldn’t afford to lose the Bloc either so he chose one, that he was sure there will be an acquittal. This hypothesis also explains why the DA did not even offer a deal, an unheard of, unprecedented move. Cause he wanted to try a case that will end with an ACQUITAL! All other ADA’s that came in to watch during the trial sat together with the spectators to hide their official identity, and did not want to associate with the ADA Mr Moore as they usually do at other trials. Poor Mr Moore (ADA) had to do the dirty work for his boss. He deserves and went on vacation.
This hypothesis is much better than saying the judge was paid off. This at least makes some sense.
I cannot evaluate all of your claimed “facts.” But is ridiculous to say the other ADAs sat apart from Mr. Moore. By law, on the actual team for each of the parties sits up front.
Thru out the trial, not a SINGLE person sat at the prosecutor’s table besides ADA Mr. Moore. (including other ADA’s and even the DA Mr. Zugebie himself) (this should be a simple one to verify).
At this point, I’m amazed how these so called child activists/protectors are still arguing (especially the ones that weren’t even at the trial), when simple laymen agree to his innocence just by reading the reports from people that were spectators at the trial. UNBELEIVABLE!!
Now I’ll reiterate, ALL that are claiming guilt at this case, are ruining all the progress made over the years for the benefit of protecting children. You’ll accomplish much more by stepping aside and to say “you know what here we had a false accusation” and keep promoting child safety. Otherwise you’ll lose ALL you’re credibility and you’ll accomplish NOTHING!!
Only the prosecutors of a particular case sit at the prosecutor’s table. That is how it is done in court.
R Kohen, I know nothing about the case and I was not at the trial. but if you read the comments of the people who attended the trial their claim is not that the boy did not remember room their claim is that he did remembered a room the did not existed at the time and that he was also scheduled with other people at the same time as well as other fact that the boy stated that was contradicted.
That has nothing to do with someone not being able to remember some details from years ago. they don’t blame him for forgetting things they are having a problem with him fabricating facts that could not exist at the time.
You are stating as proven facts things claimed by defense witnesses. Does that not show you as biased. Can’t you at least say, “According to Taubenfeld’s supported who testified for him at the trial….” Once you say that, we have a sofek about Taubenfeld’s guilt or the accuracy about Laiby’s testimony. That you don’t say that, and may not even consider that, makes me question the value of your claims and conclusions.
“Attacking the messenger of unpleasant truths is a disgrace to Yiddishkeit. Many also attacked the neviim. We side with the messages of the neviim not with those who attacked them. You are who you are. But attacking the messenger is a disgrace to yiddishkeit. It is a flight from the emes.”
Oh please!
The guy is an anti social nut, borderline anti semite and you compare him to the Prophets?
He is the furthest thing from “emes”, he picks up all the dirt he can about frum jews and posts it, he generalizes about all Chareidim and writes terrible stories attacking Israel, and you call that “emes”?
Harry Maryles is an honest man,I don;t agree with him all the time, but his criticism is constructive.
The failed one, btw, hardly reports any of the scandals amongst the Conservative and Reform.That’s “emes”?
Please
You are confusing tone and attitude with facts. And I agree, it is very rare for him to write anything positive about Haredim. But the question is whether he is accurate. Just to use a different example, take Hamodiah. They are a propaganda vehicle for the Haredi community. they censor out most negative news about charedim. Sex abuse scandals are never reported. Yet I will credit them with honesty. The facts they report are true, even if they omit many other facts. This is in contrast to some of the reporting in Yated, Matzav, Yeshiva World and the shmattes passing for Satmar newspapers, the Blatt and the Yid. Reading Hamodiah, I assume the facts are true, but I remain alert to the fact that many other true facts were omitted, including important facts to the story. Similarly, I would suggest you approach Shmarya Rosenberg’s output the same way. Yes feel offended by him, yes expect him to omit facts that make the community look better. Yes, question his analysis and interpretation. But his ratio of truth to mistakes in his facts is high. To the best of my knowledge, he truly tries hard to be accurate about his facts, and his few inaccuracies are errors which he corrects usually, as he becomes aware of them.
Those of us who care about the truth have to be willing to take it from wherever it comes. Right now, unpleasant truths are almost always censored by the Haredi media. If you reject nasty outside sources (that are factually accurate) you will deprive yourself of truths and remain sealed in a cocoon of self congratulatory, or even paranoid, ignorance. If the Haredi world does not like Shmarya Rosenberg’s reporting, let it do it’s own reporting, complete with all the relevant facts. But in the meantime….
Most of the points I mentioned are things I heard from Lybe (No lock, sperm, not knowing the children,movie,dates claimed, grooming and much more ) Or proven by images (House, him being with the care takers) By Passport (Days he was not here) and by witnesses who came across very credible.
According to you, any person from Skver who is being accused is assumed guilty? If that is the case, I would disagree with Josh who said “in the words of Chaza”l “אהבה מקלקלת את השורה”. And I would feel that we are talking about Hate that is ” מקלקלת את השורה”
A person who was accused with something, 1 story – 1 witness, DA who said other DA offices would not bring the case, the testimony was not credible, activists involved in the case from day 1, Judge found him not guilty. Why in the world should someone continue to think he is probably guilty. I hope it is not because of hate to an entire community that we can’t see the truth regarding one man.
Our community so desperately needs real genuine and honest activist who will fight for the cause while not causing innocent people tremendous pain.
Some of the activists tweeted: “Satan won this round, the losers are the children of Rockland.”
How in the world can we say “Satan won this round” if the person is not guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, especially here where according to anything I watched and listened there is no reason whatsoever to think he is guilty.
“The losers are the children of Rockland.” Indeed, because the DA is prosecuting the wrong guys! They should bring charges against the very well known abusers.
Who are the “Very well know abusers” you feel we should focus on.
Not every accused person is necessarily guilty. But in fact most are for reasons I laid out earlier why false charges are very unlikely and DAs or very shy of weak cases. In fact they violate two rules if the believe someone is not guilty. They are not allowed to knowing prosecute someone that they believe is innocent. Moreover, even if they believe someone is guilty it is a violation of law and legal ethics for them to prosecute someone for whom they do not believe they have evidence sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course a judge or jury can disagree. But if it can be proven that they know they did not have good enough evidence to plausibly establish guilt they can lose their license to practice law, and suffer other consequences. Do DA’s make mistakes. Of course, just like Drs, Accountants and rabbis. But certain kinds of mistakes are rare.
You also have no idea how many allegations I do not publicize. Not because I am necessarily convinced of innocence. But because I do not have convincing enough information for me to publicly say someone is guilty or probably guilty.
One last point- I have never had a single allegation that was not complained about with all sort of definite proof that the defendant was 100% innocent, a victim of a bilbul, a tzadik, etc and the DA was a rasha or stupid or bought off, etc. Not one. So your outrage is not proof. As I have said before I will continue to look at facts and information and will make further statements as I know more.
But if you choose to invalidate me for my uncertainty in one case, so be it. OTOH I am interested in your at least saying who you do trust. The Skverer Rebbe? The Vaad of Skver? who?
also, even if you think i am unfair, you said there are “well know other molesters I should go after.” Are you just bluffing or will you say who those are. Are you only interested in asserting the innocence of Taubenfeld or are you interested in dealing with molesters. Like they say, put up some names or don’t make vague claims.
Jonah.
please, don’t just throw out random accusations against unknown alleged molesters. It appears that you might have a connection to the abuse pipeline. PLEASE do not keep such vital information out of the public square.
He who saves one life…….Jonah, anyway, please, what is your motivation here? tsedek, tsedek, for one innocent kivyachol, abuser, or protecting current and future children As they say in the secular world, put up or shut up. Who, pray tell, are these well known molesters whom the CSA advocates, as well as the criminal justice system have ignored???.
Please demonstrate your motivation, Jonah.
I haven’t added to this thread until now, because I felt I couldn’t add anything significant to what Yerachmiel himself posted.
I do want to call attention, though, to a couple of curious facts about the statements being posted here in Taubenfeld’s defense.
First, while the defenders are emphatic about the injustice of blaming all Hasidim (or haredim, or Orthodox Jews) for the faults of some, they seem quite comfortable attacking “the activists” as a group (names are seldom used), with or without evidence of any particular wrongdoing, apparently on the theory that one acquittal discredits a whole movement of consciousness-raising and victim support. One must wonder how serious they are about their moral stance with respect to generalizing the sins of Orthodox Jews.
Second, while they insist — correctly — on the presumption of innocence for a defendant accused but not convicted of a crime, they are quite ready to smear the accuser, who has never been charged, let alone convicted of any kind of wrongdoing. Again, such inconsistency calls into question the seriousness of their argument.
An acquittal may well have been justified in this case. It’s always difficult to second-guess someone else’s “reasonable doubt” (the legal standard) about guilt in a particular prosecution. But intemperate attacks on an alleged victim, or on those who support such people, or on critics of a well-known system of abuse cover-ups and victim intimidation, are certainly uncalled for. And to my mind such attacks are inescapably part of the problem — even when paired with a sincere defense of an unsuccessfully accused abuser.
You write:
‘Mutty Weiss went to the Rebbe when he was about 18 and still wearing the levush. His yechidus was going well and the Rebbe was warm and sympathetic as he shared difficulties in his life UNTIL he said he was raped by his rebbe in yeshiva (8th grade iirc). At that point the Rebbe abrubptly shouted “varf die shaygetz arois” (throw out this disgusting non-religious bum). And he was instantly, bodily thrown out of the room and the building.’
Did you hear this from anyone other than Mutty Weiss himself? Did you ever get to hear the other side of the story?
The Rebbe, Dovid Twersky does not issue public statements. Why disbelieve Mutty Weiss. Do people, in your imagination, actually enjoy publicly saying they were raped. Are you meshugah?
He left Skver and probably moved away at least to a degree from charedihood, so he has 2 choices, either to say that he was in the wrong or to say Skver was in the wrong. So he chose the latter. You can be sure that whatever happened, in anything, in yechidus withthe Skverer rebbe, it would be in Mutty’s interest to exxagerate how badly he was treated. The Skverer Rebbe didn’t say “varf die shaygetz arois” just because Mutty respectfully asked for help saying that his rebbee raped him. It isn’t reasonable to believe that it happened just that way as he describes it.
You have not a shred of information of what happened. Say what you will about Mutty, unlike you, he knows the truth. But in your automatic defense of the Rebbe and Skver you feel a need to say that ANY criticism is a fabrication. Your response is a perfect illustration of why it is so hard for anyone in Skver to come forward to say, “I was raped.”
You are right that i don’t know what happened and I don’t claim to know. But I know that you have heard one side of a story and on the basis of that make absolute statements. This defies logic, morality and justice.
On the balance, the story seems credible. And everyone knows that Skver believes in not having their sex offenders tried by the civil courts. The head of the Skver vaad said as much in an interview with Michael Orbach of the Jewish Star.
Credible that the Rebbe, or for that matter anyone, heard this person’s pain as he respectfully told his sad story and, instead of commiserating, just said “varf die shaygetz arois” ?! That’s credible?! Only if you’re so full of hatred that שנאה מקלקלת את השורה and you’re automatically willing and actually wanting to believe the very worst.
Credible to me because of other such stories about this rebbe and the unfortunate tendency and pattern of these sorts of responses many other places in the frum world. You are so fixated are the godliness of the rebbe that any evidence to the contrary is to you, automatically false. But if your heilige rebbe is such a tzadik, one so filled with compassion, why did he never order public tehillim for Rottenberg when he was critically ill with 3rd degree burns on over 50% of his body. Not all chasidim are overflowing with chesed.
Lies, half truths and twisting if the facts.
You begin with circular reasoning, that this is credible because of other such stories, but those other stories are like this one, only credible because שנאה מקלקלת את השורה and you’re automatically willing and actually wanting to believe the very worst.
You then twist my words by saying ‘But if your heilige rebbe is such a tzadik…’, which I didn’t claim to be so because I don’t know the Skverer Rebbe. I would find such a story non credible with just about anyone, as I said. So then when you begin to make arguments that he isn’t a tzaddik as if that proves something. Is that your complaint against him, that he isn’t a tzadik? It seems that are saying worse things than that about him.
Then you mention Rottenberg. This is the same circular reasoning, and also a lie. Rottenberg was an enemy of Skver way before the burn. I’m not discussing whether a ‘Tzadik’ should say Tehilim anyway, even for an enemy, but many normal and even fine people wouldn’t. Answer this honestly. Don’t you think that in most communities, if a person antagonizes the community at large, then although most members of the community will just silently swallow, there is likely to be someone with less self control who might get violent. But you make it sound like only in Skver could such a thing happen.
Gott in himmel, you are mamash excusing retzichah. Show me another kehillah which does not shudder and scream rasha about someone who lights a fire to a home where people are sleeping. Thank you for exposing the shkotzim and skver and the thuggish mentality. I understand machlokes, but have you forgotten hakol, kol yaakov, vihayidaim, yidei esav. I write this way to reduce the chillul hashem from others reading this. Shame on you.
Oh, so if you don’t scream in pain when a Yid is hurt, even an enemy, then it is yadayim yedai aisov. So that’s your complaint. So what were you like after the murder of Menachem Stark? We all remember that. And he wasn’t your enemy, or was he because every Satmarer is your enemy and probably every charedi.
You don’t see yourself because a person is biased about himself, but others who read your blog see you as a hater of charedi Jews, and if you can’t even see it a little bit after it is brought to light, then you are a hypocrite.
Oh please stop rambling, being paranoid, and playing the pity card because I have problem with shkotzing lighting up yidden. Zei mir moichel. As for Stark, here is what I wrote. I leave it to my readers to decide whether or not I am mensch and an ish emes. I leave it to you to stew in your farbissene defense.
Yes, But I am talking about the fellow who grew up in Skver, and was the partner of Deb Tambor who also goes as Abe Weiss. The other one uses the name Mark Weiss.
It does not cost thousands of dollars to get trial transcripts if you go to the Rockland County office that archives them. They only charge a small fee per page.
FRUM FOLLIES by Yerachmiel Lopin 
,
Leiby, you did well! We don’t always understand Hashems ways. Sometimes the wicked get away with it. However your courage and exposure of evil will go along way in helping prevent exploration of children in our communities. Thank you Leiby
How dare you??? What right to you have to attack this righteous man??? You think just because he’s Chassidish and his maligner ex-chassidish this makes him automatically guilty???
For shame.
Beating the rap doesn’t make Taubenfeld a tzadik. It makes him like OJ Simpson.
I also hate Catholic priests, comedians and secular politicians who rape children.
comment deleted by Yerachmiel Lopin because it violated blog policy of not identifying victim either by name or by description. N’Aron did that about the victim in the Bodenheimer case. Permanent banned from posting on this blog.
Thank God that we can start trusting the justice system.
Can you activist tell me what bar would prove you that as person is innocent? Is EVERY accusation true?
please let us know your policy. Otherwise you’re all phonies.
Josh did you also say that after OJ Simpson was acquitted?
Acquitted by judge but not by hashem. Unfortunately the court is run by comrade David twersky and his gangsters. A special thanks to the grand rabbi of Texas rabbi nuchem rosenberg shilita for giving his flesh and blood for the safety of children. May you be blessed with health and nachas from your children and einiklich.
don’t bring OJ Simpson here, answer a simple question, is every accusation true, or can somebody be falsely accused?
Of course an accusation can be false. Do you agree someone who is guilty can be acquitted. For example do you think OJ was innocent of murder because he was acquitted?
Yerachmiel.
You were not there
I was not there
A judge that listened to the evidence found him not guilty.
Is he guilty? I don’t know,but most probably not.
What kind of justice system are we supposed to have, when people like yourself, who at least, addresses people decently or the failedmessiah antisocial jackass, are the “deciders” of justice?
There is a system here that has to be honored.It’s not perfect, but much better than subjective bloggers like the failedmessiah ?”deciding” guilt.
Your analogy to O.J is so off.I don’t know if you remember the case, the day of the murder, how he spent hours eluding the police in his car iirc, how he Nicole his wife was terrified of him,how he had threatened her for a long time.
Here we have a case where we don’t have any reason to believe Taubenfeld is guilty, besides the testimony , which the judge found unconvincing.
Please try to be an honest, objective blogger.Nuchem Rosenberg, cannot, by any stretch be taken seriously
After Shabbat I will address why in fact the analogy to OJ fits like a glove. But for starters, a community of law abiders does not need to intimidate and expel anyone bringing charges to the police. Also see my post: https://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2015/04/15/what-chicago-can-learn-from-the-skvere-rebbe-from-the-archives/ and frimet Goldbergers report on sex abuse coverups in New Square. Shabbat shalom
I am in no way a supporter of Child abuse cover-ups nor do I trust the court.
Two cases were decided in the same court in one week, one was acquitted, & the other decided to take plea, which in no way did he admit sexually offending.
The fact he had good council mentioned here, is no way a reason to believe he had his own money to pay for it. He isn’t young, and needs closure, there was no admission to sexual abuse, no matter what the penalty was, it is the better of two evils. Germanic Jews hate taking charity, & would rot in jail rather than having to take others money. I don’t know the man, I have only heard how he beat kids, & obviously he got some beating back over here, like the Yerushalmi in the first mishna in Peoh, says if you do the opposite of gemilas chasodim, you get punished in both worlds.
The fact that physical abuse is sometimes a cover-up, for sexual, was evident in the case of the YU school case, so is it in those Rebbes who hoisted kids across their lap to spank them, and broke their contracts of tvilas Ezra, in the course. However this guy doesn’t sound like that.
Back to the point, in the Tabenfeld (don’t know him either, but I do know Lieby’s brother) case no one posting here trusts the court at all, he had good council, in those Hungarian communities like New Square (not the Russian original), it is no embarrassments to take pidyon shevuyim money, so he could take it to the end.
Punch line: The commenters over here & the site manager are so sure that the one who accepted the plea, is guilty of all the original charges, in spite of the fact that in almost 70 years of his life & most of it in chinuch, no one else has come forward before , during or after the case.
In the Taubenfeld case in spite of being acquitted all commenters, are sure he is 100% guilty, & all the court established was reasonable doubt.
To summarize: Anyone who makes it to the blogs who allegedly committed sex crimes: Has already been convicted in the court of the blogs. The judge , Jury or court know nothing.
Why even bother with court let the blogs throw the guy in jail & toss the keys?
BTW I don’t comment here usually although I have a yetzer Hora to look here, The attitude over here, just ekes me, if the blogs did feel they were doing a service why mess it up?
Lies. Lies. Lies.
First of all there has been a sex offender from New Square that already served jail time. See: Yisuchar Kohn.
Where you in court? I watched the whole trial, which “few” brothers corroborated? There was “one” brother, who’s testimony was bizarre. Saying “dont know” out “next question please” on almost every question, having the judge force him to answer questions. It came out that his child was taken away from him with ” no visitation rights “. That’s what the so called brother of victim is all about. He screamed in court that he hates new square and his motive was just so obvious.
Otherwise there was no corroborations whatsoever. There were four witness of the defense all saying clear that Taubenfeld knew the boy, and the defense didn’t try claiming otherwise. There was a surprise moment in the court room when the prosecuter said that he wants to bring witness that Mr. Taubenfeld know the boy, and the defense attorney said they’re is no need to prove that as we agree to that. It was the prosecution that has that assumption that the defense will claim that. And you were misled by that.
Regarding Rabbi Taubenfelds denial, you weren’t in court to watch the video. I was. He Never denied knowing the sterns. He denied molesting or touching any kid in his life. He was grilled for two and a half hours by the detective and no admission or corroboration came out of his mouth.
The prosecution tried claiming that the fact that when asked if he knew s family stern he answered they’re are many sterns in New Square is an admission of guilt. How stupid.
Are you aware that the kid said that the room was an office, and the defence presented pictures that it was a bedroom for most of the years. Are you aware that the kid said that the door had NO lock, and it was supported with pictures of the defense? Are you aware that the child described the room more from the outside than the inside? Anyone sitting in the courtroom knew one thing clear: this child maybe visited the residence 2-3 times to play as a child and therefore knows a bit. Impossible he was in that house daily for five years.
Did you hear how the kid testified that it happened in middle of the Purim meal with 15 family members around the table, and he took him to the next room without a lock… Come on…..
And besides the fact that the agenda was soooooo obvious. How he hated new square, he fought with his parents to leave etc. etc.
Let me see you having the guts to approve this post.
P.S. There’s way more to write on the craziness of this kids story. I.E. yom kippur, getting 12,000 dollars at age 10 without parental knowledge and much more. I will elaborate if anyone still needs more. I didn’t meet one person that came to court without an agenda that thought that this story is true. I spoke to several onlookers who came to observe, not knowing nothing and coming objectively. NO ONE thought this man is guilty.
You write: “I didn’t meet one person that came to court without an agenda that thought that this story is true.” Sorry, you are assuming you are objective and everyone who disagrees with you has an agenda. With your sort of logic, everything is clear. But you obviously have an agenda in the way you ridicule and narrate. Go on believing what you will but stop fooling yourself.
However, my biggest problem with your long recitation is that there are blatant falsehoods in your portrait of the trial. Contrary to what you write, Taubenfeld never took the witness stand. So please advise us how you know what happened at the trial if you did not attend, and why you should be trusted if you did attend and could be so wrong.
The reason Taubenefled did not take the stand is that it would have opened him up to cross-examination. He could not afford that risk. A tzadik doesnt worry about that risk. He played it well, he had a judge dependent on Skver votes to get elected, and he beat the rap because the burden of proof for conviction is high. I wish the US didn’t force a verdict of either guilty or not guilty, but like Scotland had a third option, “Not Proven” beyond a reasonable doubt.
I was at the trial. Could you quote me where I wrote that he took the witness stand? I wrote what was seen at trial as the tape of Taubenfeld talking to the detectives was played. That’s where he was grilled. Now reread what I wrote.
Could you tell me why to put an innocent man on stand to go through torture? The defense was soooooo obvious that there was no need for the defense attorney to put a person who lost his wife and baby, had his house burned, to suffer one more bit in his life. The lies of the prosecution spoke for themselves.
Regarding my agenda, yes – I have one. To speak for Taubenfelds innocence. I believe that true molesters should be reported and sent to prison. I used to appreciate the work of some activists trying to bring change in our community. I thought you can differentiate between a true or false allegations. I really hope you look in deep in the details of the case, get the transcripts, talk to some people who observed the case objectively and let me see your conclusion. Your bravery to decide that some cases might be false, will only grant you more credibility when you fight true molesters.
Regarding the Scottish idea. I hold like you. I am positive that it would be be “not guilty”, and it would lead all skeptics to see that this man is not guilty. How I wish our court would be able to clear would be able to clear his name fully, something our courts currently don’t do as that only have one verdict for acquittal.
P.S. Btw, you didn’t respond to one argument in the craziness of this story that I mentioned above.
I admire that you posted my previous comment. Let me see you post this one as well, and even agree.
I spoke to some people attending who indeed believed he would be acquitted because the witness was not very articulate and had some other dificits in communication and interaction. However they were convinced of Taubenfeld’s guilt. When I asked those two about the Scottish option, they felt a Scottish jury would probably have voted the charges “not proven.”
Please don’t dray around with the traumatized stuff. Taubenfeld has been active and functional in many respects for well these many years since his trauma.
As we both know, Taubenfeld lives in and by the values and standards of Skver. In his town, being a molester is no disaster. Where else can a man plead guilty to being a molester and still be a teacher of young children. Yet there is TV footage that this is what his brother got to do. In fact in his town you also don’t lose status for being a ganiff or a rotzeach. When the ganovim got out of jail they were welcomed and given kovod. Same will happen for Shaul Spitzer when he is finished with jail for trying to burn down Rottenberg’s house and almost succeeding in killing him. in fact, nothing decided by a goyish justice system matters for your local standing. In fact, in Skver it seems ok to be a rasha on some things that disgust many frum yidden.
As you must know if you understand Skver, there are incredible pressures placed on any victim of sex abuse, grown up or child who dares to speak out. In Skver if you know it, the Rebbe is the final authority. When Mutty Weiss with tears talked to the Rebbe, he finally explained the source of his sorrow, being raped by his rebbe. The response: varf arois die shaygetz (toss out this disgusting goy). And sure enough he was physically tossed.
In Skver, it is considered OK to lie to goyish court to save a yid from jail, even a rapist, arsonist, or crook. And indeed, chasidim sitting in court where convinced several of the defense witnesses perjured themselves.
Give me a trial where witnesses aren’t initimidated and defense witnesses dont perjure themselves, and I will be more confident that the not guilty by a court proves innoncence. I cannot prove anything one way or another. But why should I declare this man is innocent. Let’s agree to call it a sofek. When there is danger, with a sofek one is careful and wary.
Let me ask you something? If another person alleges abuse by Taubenfeld and he either pleads guilty or gets convicted at trial, will you take back your conclusions about Laiby’s allegations.
Yerachmiel, I must admire your openness to hear the other side. I now differ you from other activist who seem not to be able to differentiate between one story or another.
I would love to hear your opinion after you put your hand on the transcripts. I assume you will have the courage to think openly and consider this a phony.
I will not go in to the whole Skver issue you raised, as I don’t believe that this should objectively play in to the decision on analyzing one person’s guilt or innocence. I assume that you also believe that there are good people in Skver as well. (just to correct one error, his brother died NOT teach in New Square. Look at the TV footage again and you’ll see that they all the children about “Taubenfeld”, not saying which one. It is a total different one. Do your research. But in any case this part doesn’t void or approve what you wrote about New Adequate).
The reason I presume Taubenfeld innocence, is exactly for the point you raised. He had taught hundreds of chasanim and there is full support from ALL. I’m sure you can can do your own research. Should Taubenfeld be convicted in a court of law on a different matter I would honor and believe that decision. But honestly this story with Laiby would still need some very very serious thinking how this is possible. I believe you’ve read what I wrote above. How do you explain all that?
Regarding the perjury of the witness, I say in court and I also felt that they might have overdone summer facts. But the core was in tact. I even wanted to tell them why did you need to exaggerate when the basic good. The layout of the house was backed with pictures. His schedule was backed with other witness etc.
You say, why no other complainants in court given his contact with hundreds of children. It is a fact well known that most abuse victims never come forward till decades later. In fact many never share their stories with anyone till decades later. Those are statistics in the secular world. But in the haredi world there is enormous social pressure not to publicly complain let alone go to the criminal justice system. In most Hasidic communities that brands you as a moiser. Then you kids get kicked out of school, you lose jobs or businesses, you get kicked out of shul. In Skver, you may also have your house burned down. So please don’t use the absence of other complainants as proof there are no other victims.
The video was clear about which Taubenfeld and it was a yeshiva for younger boys. MM Taubenfeld did not teach younger boys. He was a shoel umeishiv for older boys in halacha. So yes, H Taubenfeld, a convicted molester was allowed to teach young boys (looked about 8 in TV footage) after a conviction for child molesting.
I spoke of perjury by defense witnesses. You speak about “overdone.” Overdone is a nice polite expression for lying. Don’t you have to wonder why a defense would have to lie. You refer to other defense evidence- how do you know what was true and what was false?
How sad this site is. Taubenfeld is acquitted and you say, so? Doesn’t mean that he is not guilty. Bodenheimer pleads guilty and you say, see, he molested a child. I’d say, hey, judge felt that Taubenfeld is innocent. Maybe. Poor Bodenheimer, he may be innocent, but was warned that if prosecuted he would face jail time, possible get killed in jail, and all because accused molesters are often guilty until proven innocent. Right, some will say that no innocent man would willingly plead guilty. I say that one sad tombstone reads “here rests a man, murdered in jail, bravely willing to go to jail so as not to besmirch his name”.
Get a grip. Your logic is that if acquitted, he is innocent and he pleads guilty he is also innocent. Doesn’t a guilty plea mean anything?
If you read what I said carefully it’s not what I said. I was only frowning upon those that did the opposite, used the guilty please to condemn but to just make away with the judges decision. don’t get me wrong. A child molester is the dregs of society, a rodef, and deserving of all the scorn and aggression heaped on him. But, we can’t assume that EVERYONE is ALWAYS guilty to the point that we are prepared to ruin his life based on any accusation to the point that we judge him guilty both ways (above).
Hello,
Thanks for the good work, in helping keep the community clean and responsible.
As someone who was sexually abused as a child, and as a father of 4 children wanting to see a change in how our community is taking care of these problems, I was attending this trial with an open mind. Wanting to see how justice is being served.
As the trial progressed, and facts were established, my opinion is that Taubenfeld is innocent beyond any reasonable doubt!
I couldn’t agree with the judge more, and I’m sure that should we have the Scotland system the Judge would find him Not Guilty too.
To point out each and every detail that broad this conclusion would be hard, but I will point out some of the factors:
Leiby said it happened in an office on the right side of the home, on an office table. Dated pictures and four witnesses accepted as evidence show that there was no office in the home at that time what so ever.
Leiby said he stayed at the Taubenfeld residence almost every day between 5-8. There were two witnesses confirming that they got paid to take care of Leiby in these hours, every single day. ( A classic case of הזמה…)
Leiby said he got $20 everytime, when asked what have you done with the money he said ” I saved it.”
So the lawyer makes him aware that it totals at least $12,000 a year. Leiby changed and said I was spending it on books in the only bookstore in Skver. The bookstore owner testifies that Leiby never bought a single book in his store. (He remembers he used to borrow books and not bring them back)
Leiby admitted that Nuchim Rosenberg prepared him before the trial, while the trial is going on and even before he went to the police for the first time he met with activists.
Leibys story was very robotic, it sounded like a Mishnah that he studied well and knew it by heart.
Leiby said many times that he was wrong with what he said at the grand jury, “I’m sorry” and one time he said that the court stenographer typed it wrong.
Leiby said that in 2003 the abuse intensified, and he was abused a few times a week. But the passport of Mr. Taubenfeld shows that he was out of the country for an extended time in 2003, due to the tragic incident with his wife. Then he was in Boston for a very long time.
Leiby said things that are unlikely to believe, for example:
“That it happened Purim, Yum Kippur” To me this makes it more unlikely to believe.
That every day “sperm came out” at the age of 8???
That he went to Taubenfeld for support after the Sep 11 attacks??? An eight-year-old?
He went to him because he was a marriage counselor. There was testimony that he was not a marriage counselor at that time. (My eight-year-old son would never know who is a marriage counselor, and when he is worried about something he would talk to me, not to neighbors)
Leiby said he came forward in 2010 because of inspiration from the Movie “Zero Dark Thirty.” when the lawyer points out that Zero Dark Thirty was released in December 19, 2012, Lybe argues back that he is right and the lawyer is wrong.
His testimony is the only evidence in this case, the testimony did not feel credible in the first place, and everything he said was contradicted with testimony and pictures from others. There was not any other evidence in this case. To me, I don’t see why I should even have a Sufak.
Character witnesses testified that Taubenfeld is someone with an excellent reputation in the community, teaches a few 100 students over the last few years, and there are only good stories on him.
I would like to encourage the DA to continue to help the community’s children by bringing charges against child abusers. I don’t understand why they choose the wrong cases to prosecute.
According to some commenters, it looks like they think 1) that people are presumed guilty until proven innocent. 2) Innocents can never be proven.
Not having access to the transcript, I am inquiring with a trustworthy trial observer and will reply here when I have more information. However, there was some apparent perjury by those who claim to have been with Laiby every day for years but could not produce a shred of corroborating evidence that this happened or proof they ever did the same for any other kid in skver, ever.
Yerachmiel
please don’t use the failed jackass soneh yisroels logic?
Look at this example: “. In fact in his town you also don’t lose status for being a ganiff or a rotzeach. When the ganovim got out of jail they were welcomed and given kovod. Same will happen for Shaul Spitzer when he is finished with jail for trying to burn down Rottenberg’s house and almost succeeding in killing him.”
I”m referring to what you claim that to be a rotzeach does not mean loss of status AND YOU PROVE THAT POINT BY YOUR OWN WISHFUL THINKING! Spitzer has NOT yet been released, so we don’t know how he”ll treated, right? You obviously HOPE he”ll get a hero’s welcome so it”ll prove your point,BUT, it has not yet happened so your point is illogical and mute,
An 18 year old impressionable kid is not a rotzeach, he did not mean to kill anybody, he was a very immature stupid kid, just like you and i may have been.The Failed jackass cannot understand subtle and not such suble things.You can,So quit being disingenuous.
You nor moshe pipik nor almost anybody else besides the accuser (if he does in fact know) and Taubenfeld.The rest in conjecture, the type the obese failed jackass likes to do.
Rest assured that I think Skver has many, many things that need change. and it will change, just like change and sunshine have come everywhere,Yet, i do think and ive met many from skver that they are mostly good decent, hard working people
When Rottenberg was hospitalized with 3rd degree burns on 50% of his body, nobody apologized on behalf of community. Instead there were flyers to say tehillim for spitzer the arsonists.
I did foolish things as a seventeen year old. But never in my wildest imagination would I have considered setting fire to a house. Never. I certainly thought only shkotzim did things like that.
If the past is any precedent, spitzer will get the welcome home. He also got a jail visit by the Rebbe that was publicized. No sex abuse victim in Skver ever reported consoling words from the Rebbe.
For my view of skver, see:
I have no doubt that there are wonderful people in Skver who do not commit arson, or sexually abuse. However, the culture of Skver is dominated by the Rebbe and the ethos of not accepting or respecting civil authority. Moreover, I assume that in Skver, like in most of the world, sex abusers are a small proportion of the population. But they cause more harm because they are not put away soon enough to prevent them from having more victims.
yerachmiel, u yourself wrote about an urge you had when you were young at a camp, remember?
Young people do silly things, i highly doubt that spitzer wanted to kill anybody.
Anyway, i want to be able to read and respect the blog, not to feel that you have a bone to pick with frum people .I don’t think frum people are perfect,i know that everyone can have an evil inclination that brings them down.i know that internet sunshine has cured many ills.I don’t want this blog to be like the failed anti social misfit and his commenters, who hate , hate, hate,Frum Jews worldwide and Israel.Some of his scum actually said hitler was right, regarding Chareidim.
Don’t allow your blog to turn into that.Please
I indeed wrote about being sexually abused in camp sometime before HS by several boys together when I wasn’t even bar mitzvah. I wrote I was tempted at one point to touch another boy sexually but stopped before it got that far. Luckily for me I did not go down that path. But had I, I would have been lucky to have been caught ASAP so I could be treated. As it was I never abused, but I did carry a psychological burden and it was decades before the first time I even recognized the emotional weight and actually cried. So I am not sure how my report is grist for you except as a dig.
Shaul was ~17. He deliberately carried a can of gas to the house of dissident. He set the house on fire, burnt Mr. Rottenberg with 3rd degree burns over half of his body. You are treating it like he was once tempted to light a match on the street. Sorry, that is not a reasonable comparison. Mah inyan shemita aitzel har sinai?
What is this chazerai about the hate againsts Jews. I love Jews and Judaism. I have great respect for those who who are erlich. Since when is a good Jew supposed to be indifferent to the abuse of children, theft or murderous arson? People like you who rationalize it are a disgrace to Yiddishkeit.
Yerachmiel,
Are you saying i’m a disgrace to yiddishkait?
Why the ad hominem?
Are you taking a page from failed scottys book?
I did not rationalize anything.I put things in context.A 17 OR 18 year old can do silly things because of a lack of maturity,There are scientific studies about the brain not becoming totally functional till about 20.Young teenagers have driven cars at very high speeds causing terrible damage,. My point was that when the young Spitzer firebombed the house his maturity level did not tell him that he could actually kill people.
Again don’t choose the dufuses path, if you want any credibility that is. If you don’t, continue taking pages out of the failed ass, who’s own grandfather was a REAL mobster, the Al Capone of St Paul
The mark of a good Jew is to follow the model of Dovid Hamelech and Yehuda. When confronted with sexual misconduct one admits it and takes corrective action rather than blaming others. Dovid did not attack nosson the navi. Yehuda said Tamar is more in the right than me.
You are busy attacking Shmarya Rosenberg of Failed Messiah. It is true that he hates much of the Haredi community, but he reports a lot of truths that demand a tikkun, not a cover up. The best defense for the frum world is to fix the problems, not to call him names.
Believe me, when the frum world does a good job of confronting sex abuse, I will save myself the aggravation and work of running this blog.
There is a reason that so many frum people read Shmarya’s blog, Failed Messiah. That want to know the truths that their own publications conceal. They read him even though they don’t like his attitude to the frum world.
Attacking the messenger of unpleasant truths is a disgrace to Yiddishkeit. Many also attacked the neviim. We side with the messages of the neviim not with those who attacked them. You are who you are. But attacking the messenger is a disgrace to yiddishkeit. It is a flight from the emes.
A recent New Square newsletter mentioned a party thrown on behalf of Spitzer even though he is locked up in absentia.
Skver is like organized crime. They sit around with their Sopranos size schnapps glezelach toasting Salut-leChaim for the consigliere-hoiz bucher who got pinched into tfisa.
There is a Monsey askan originally from Switzerland by the way who was fighting with the Rebbe for years about his “chassidim” operating porno shops in Rockland County.
There is something even worse than that going on right now which no one has had the baitzim to stop. It may boil down to Satmar Williamsburg going up there to put a stop to it since it is a michshol for chassidim of every stripe, and Satmar is usually proactive (for both good & bad).
Pikanti m’od.
(re the issue at Skver requiring a tikun by Satmar?)
I don’t understand why Spitzer became the issue of this post. No one is disputing Spitzer as a criminal.
Regarding the people who worked with Lybe, they had pictures of Lybe in their Home, they also sounded very credible with all the details.
After listening to the case in court I think people who are claiming Taubenfeld = OJ Simpson have a blind agenda to support every story against anyone in the community, even against people who are more likely to be NOT guilty.
I think this is harming the progress that child activists have achieved in the community. They come across as very biased and unfair.
The facts presented, in this case, are screaming NOT GUILTY. Let us work on getting the real abusers off the streets, not the innocent.
I wish I had access to the complete transcript. If I did I would take the time to read them through to the end. Unfortunately, the NYS system is that private companies produce the official transcripts and charge thousands of dollars for them. But were anyone who has them to share them with me, I would read them through to the end, and reflect in this blog on what I conclude. At this point I am limited to what was reported and to the observations of those who attended the sessions I am conducting inquiries with observers I find objective, including some who were convinced of Taubenfeld’s guilt but also felt that the verdict should have been not guilty because the case wasn’t adequately supported at the trial.
I speak about Spitzer because it helps show the attitudes of the Skver community about controlling any challenge to authority. That supports my claim of the tendency to and effectiveness of witness intimidation in Skver.
You are certain of Taubenfeld’s innocence. So were many African Americans certain about OJ as were many others convinced of his innoncence. It nicely illustrates the problem of people coming out with categorical statements which may reflect their biases. And those with the opposing opinions had more detailed info because of the very detailed reporting.
I think people will go on disagreeing about this trial. But even those who believe he is guilty are accepting that the verdict in court must be accepted limaiysah.
I will continue to seek and review more information. For the moment, not with certainty, but with strong inclination, I believe he was probably guilty but the case had weaknesses in presentation that may have justified that verdict by a judge or a jury. But that is a tentative statement, not one that I am committed to until I know more.
Yerachmiel,
1. Although you don’t answer on all my questions. You pick and choose which to address, I will answer all of them.
5.Now I see another onlooker above, Greenbaum, agrees to my assumptions. Now Yerachmiel, you weren’t there. I’m still waiting to debate someone that was there that holds differently. As I wrote in the beginning, not 1 person I met there held differently (besides Nuchem Risenberg and Waltzer who were publicly active without having your capabilities of differentiating right and wrong).
Bottom line, Yerachmiel, I am convinced that after you review the transcripts we will have no argument. You won’t be embarrassed to come out and say: listen, I retract. Or communities have failures, we must correct then. But this was just against an innocent man shot in friendly fire.
when you write a lot, it is hard to answer everything. I have taken the liberty of numbering your statements (without, otherwise, changing a single word to make it easier for me and others to be clear about what we are responding to.
Indeed, kolo delo pasuk is halachah allowing one to disqualify a shochet or a teacher, according to the shoel umeishiv. However, there are many cases in the chasidish and yeshivish communities where molesters were allowed to continue as teachers for decades in spite of kolo delo pasuk. Skver has a history of supressing and punishing those who complain about abusers. So lets not assume that it works. The only case of someone cut down somewhat was Heshy Breur (aka Brier). You also know that kolo delo pasuk only works if the murmurs are not shot down with screams of loshon horah. We both know it is permitted to repeat certain unfavorable facts to protect others. But the fashion in the frum world is to usually use loshon horah to suppress such talk. That is especially true in Skver.
I spoke to people who were with the TV reporter that day. It is clear that the kids were referring to Hershel Taubenfeld. And Hershel Taubenfeld was definitely a yeshiva ketana teacher. I am disappointed in your inaccuracy.
I detailed what I considered perjury, and I am not referring to such images and expressions. I never said and I was not referring to such figures of speech.
Yerachmiel,
I appreciate your adding numbers to my comment.
At first I would like to answer in order of your numbering:
A. I just disagree on the facts you’re writing. There are rumors on more than one person. Way more. Correct, our communities shuns and try to stop, and therefore your work is greatly appreciated. However there are MANY rumors, and Taubenfelds name is CLEAN. Do your homework. I understand your position, but I choose to disagree. I hope you accept that.
B. Please Yerachmiel, do your research. Independently. I’m sure you have inner New Square sources that tell you the truth. I challenge you to verify it by Hershels victim alone. He does NOT teach in any school currently (and never taught, just did some private tutoring that he currently also doesn’t do). Those kids are referring to a different Taubenfeld. Take into account the lack of English communication between the cameramen and the kids. I don’t expect you to respond on this instantly, as I assume your research can take time.
C. I don’t write what you wrote. I explained my position where they over did it.
2) When I write that you choose your responses, I was referring to the flaws in the testimony that you choose not to address. However I read what you wrote above that you’d like to analyze yourself the full testimony. I appreciate your openness to limiting your opinion to your current data. Please take into account that I did attend the trial. Can you have one the people that you spoke with, and presumed he’s guilty blog here?
I have inside sources in all of the major Charedi communiites in the US, except Skver. It is the most insular of all the chasidishe kehilos (with the exception of Lev Tahor, if you want to dignify them with the label, a chasidus). Instead I rely of those who have left the community (some who are still frum and some who aren’t). Some of them retain inside contacts useful for info on who occupies what roles, what the takkanos are, etc. But even they can’t get anyone inside to talk about the dark secrets (which all communities have to some degree).
So, it is hard to say there was a kolo delo passuk (persistent rumors) or not. There is a long history in Skver of kicking out people who dare to raise sex abuse. Mutty Weiss went to the Rebbe when he was about 18 and still wearing the levush. His yechidus was going well and the Rebbe was warm and sympathetic as he shared difficulties in his life UNTIL he said he was raped by his rebbe in yeshiva (8th grade iirc). At that point the Rebbe abrubptly shouted “varf die shaygetz arois” (throw out this disgusting non-religious bum). And he was instantly, bodily thrown out of the room and the building. Can’t you see why even rumors would have a hard time spreading under those conditions. Skver is a locked down, closed society.
However, I do know a shocking fact. I have spoken to people in Footsteps, including some with good ongoing relationships with their chasidish families in Brooklyn and Monsey. Among many factors driving the OTD decision is sexual abuse which the community refused to deal with. The shocking observation about Skver was that while somewhere around a 1/3 of those coming from other communities reported being molested as kids, almost all those from Skver reported being molested.
I am still in the process of collecting and assessing more information about the trial. Obviously multiple complainants make a case more credible but the lack of others I AM AWARE of does not prove innocence.
Let me give you an interesting example, Nechemya Weberman. I have a list of known sex offenders who no one was ever willing to publcily accuse but there is a kolo delo passuk. I never heard a word about any such thing about Weberman. the day after he was arrested I spoke to a Williamsburg source who was in shock. This source had actually helped me identify other abusers and knew Nechemya and liked and respected him. The source could not believe it about him. Eventually, some six women talked to the DA about his sexual abuse. Another informed activists inside Satmar had a list of ten known victims. Yet there were no rumors before then. However some people knew, specifically the lead dayanim, askanim and the two Satmar Rebbes. I say that because the women or their male relatives had directly gone to these Satmar leaders and shared their terrible stories. And there weren’t complaints from just anyone. some of these were from some of the most choshuv Satmar families. In each case, they were given sympathy and assured the whole thing would be stopped. Of course it wasn’t and Weberman was allowed to continue as a member of the vaad hatznius and as “Torah therapist” with teen girls and boys forced to see him by the Satmar and Pupa yeshivas.
But at least in Satmar, the stories came out after he was arrested. But Satmar is the wild west compared to Skver. Nobody in Satmar, even in KJ, ever got his housed burned for davening in another minyan. To this day, the rebbe has never apologized to Rottenberg. When he was critically ill with 3rd degree burns, no tehillim were organized for him. Instead the kehilla had its members say tehillim for the arsonist. Anyone in Skver who wants to go on living there would have to be nuts to start talking about sex abuse. That is ossur.
So, the fact that others have not come forward to me or other anti-abuse activists is not proof that there were no others. I am not saying it proves he is guilty, just saying I would not be surprised if there were others, but the stories did not come out.
Pupa had a falling out with Satmar this past year, completely cutting ties with Hisachdus at every level including kashrus.
My comment was about sending girls to Weberman which all happened before he was arrested some years ago. I also know that Ahroinis also won’t eat the hisachdus meat unless they are in Otisville.
If ” the case had weaknesses in presentation that may have justified that verdict by a judge or a jury” why do you continue to “believe he was probably guilty”?
If it is because of your claimed ” tendency to and effectiveness of witness intimidation in Skver” does that mean that every person in Skver who was/will ever be accused is automatically guilty?
I was listening to the case, to every word that was said in court. The allegations did not make any sense to me in the first place and they were contradicted by witnesses, pictures, experts and by common sense.
Do you understand my argument that when child activists continue to scream OJ Simpson and Guilty because of Skver on such a case they are losing credibility?
Being molested as a child is terrible! It’s a crime and needs to be taken care off in the strongest possible ways!
Being falsely accused with molesting a child is terrible! Its unfair! Continuing to scream guilty or Sufak when there is nothing to support it should be condemned in the strongest possible ways!
So you are saying you would entrust children with Taubenfeld because you are certain he is innocent. You are so absolute. I have never known a trial where there were not good points on both sides. Prosecutors abort such cases well before trial. Defendants take plea bargains well before trials. I am curious, can you admit to any weaknesses in the Taubenfeld case. If so, what are they. If none, either the DA is the biggest of fools or you are not an objective observer. which is it?
So your argument now boils down to the fact that the DA pursued the case. That’s the sign of guilt. While I understand your issue here, and the DA usually knows how to pick their battles, here they were wrong.
Why? A great question. But not enough to assume guilt.
I wondered the same sitting at trial. I think you raised a valid point.
Here is one theory. We all know that the DA had great difficulty pursuing cases in our community. Victims are being harassed, and end up not going to trial. The fact that they finally got a kid ready to take the stand misguided them, toppled with the fact that those Brooklyn activist came to the DA again and again (something that came up very clearly at trial, for four years in a row the DA didn’t want to pursue the case and then took upon it. Laiby came to the detectives and the DA together with those activists). The media pressure was also enormous.
This is just one hypothesis that I can suggest.
To summarize while I agree that you raised a valid point, it doesn’t show guilt… Who knows why they pursued it…
I have some familiarity with the DAs. They don’t pay attention to the anti abuse activists. I wish it was otherwise. But on this I am well informed. The DAs in Brooklyn and Rockland county are political creatures. I don’t know about their chehbon hanefesh but they sure know how to count votes. Seriously, how many votes can a DA lose because Nuchem Rosenberg publicly attacks them. At the very most, a few hundred. OTOH, the askanim of Skver can deliver 99% of their ~2,000 votes. The askanim of Monsey can deliver enough votes to decide the election in a county where the total vote in the last presidential election, iirc, was ~82,00 votes. So, no, I don’t think the DA would pursue a case to make Nuchem Rosenberg or me happy. Halevai it was otherwise. but it isn’t.
REGARDING THE ROLE OF NUCHEM AND HIS ASSOCIATES IN BRINGING THE CASE: I have real time info on that role in first bringing the case to the DA. Laiby was indeed given support in going to the local police to lodge his complaint. The police were very professional. After the brief initial contact and statement of an allegation, they interviewed Laiby with no advocates present, per the professional policy in the CJ business. When they realized they needed a Yiddish translator, they brought in their own translator and did not rely on Nuchem Rosenberg or his associate.
Just another example is Brooklyn DA, Kenneth Thompson. Among his issues in running against Hynes was the claim that Hynes was deliberately going easy on Haredi child molesters. Yet while running for office he hired Yossi Gestetner to work for his campaign. Everyone in the anti-abuse community despises Gestetner who is the PR guy for all sorts of Haredi menuvalim including Yisroel Moshe Weingarten (serving 30 years for raping his daughter), Nechemaya Weberman (serving a sentence of 45 years) Moishe Turner (convicted of ~8 acts of anal rape), etc. If Thompson was afraid of Nuchem would he have given a no jail deal to a man provably guilty of throwing bleach in his face. Instead, these days you find Thompson attending the kislev events of both Satmar Rebbes, going to their chasunas and being buddy-buddy with Lipa/Leo Friedman and Gary Schlesinger and even Ben Barber of Bobov, chief BP chasidish schnorer for former DA Hynes.
DA’s don’t like bad publicity of any sort. But I strongly doubt any of them would give more weight to Nuchem Rosenberg than to the Haredi bloc vote most of which is controlled by the Rebbes and their askanim.
I was sexually molested and victimized as a child. As painful as it is for me to write that, I just want to point out that please don’t question my objectivity regarding this issue. If something, I’m usually biased for the victims. The DA just didn’t have a case here…
I think there is no greater harm that can be done to victims, then bringing senseless cases for a trail. Why? Because it ends up going not guilty and is discouraging all the real victims from coming forward.
I think that activists who continue to make the impression as if everyone who is accused by someone is guilty, even if the story does not make any sense, even if there are no other stories, and even if they were found NOT GUILTY in court- these activities are destroying their trust in the community and are reversing much of the progress and the awareness we’ve made.
Yes, if you ask me the DA is very foolish that they were bringing this case! A DA who brings such a case is a big fat fool! They are not really doing their job in representing the people!
I think they did it do to the pressure of the media, the pressure of activists like Nuchem Rosenberg and others. And they were fighting as hard as they could to get him guilty not knowing how bad this is going to play out in court.
Tom Zugabe the DA said something like this in Vus is Nies: “With regard to Mosha, here is the victim says us one thing the media another thing. We listened to his story difficulte story, 13 years old the case is, no forensics in the case, the entire case rests on one individual, we put him before the grand jury. We believed the story.
I think some offices won’t proceed with such a case based on the victim’s testimony alone, we are not concerned with conviction rates! ”
In my opinion, they were bringing this case do to pressure, and they shouldn’t of do that. They should care about convictions!
Mosha Toubenfeld was abused, vilified, embarrassed, by this DA for apparently nothing!
Let me point out some of the things I observed in court. But before going into technical details let me first said that the tone, body language, and contradictions every 2 minutes and constant lies of the boy made me be very skeptical about this case even before I heard the defence side of the story.
1) He claimed it happened in an office on the right side of the house.
1-1 It was proven in court (with many dated images, and four witnesses) that there was no office in the house at that time!
1-2 It seems like he was never in the back half of the house, and didn’t know where the bedroom and other rooms were. Corroborates with the fact that he never went to the back.
1-3 When he was questioned how the hallway goes he said “right and left north south east and west.” The images and blueprint show the hallway going in only one direction.
2) He said he went to Taubenfeld because he is a leader and one of the most powerful people in Skver and that he was a marriage counselor at the time.
2-1 It appeared in court that he is not an official Rabbi, not involved in leadership. Does not have any real power. Just a very respected man that remains in control after pain and suffering, so people learn from him. That is the only power he has.
2-2 He started his job as a marriage counselor much later. Wasn’t a counselor at that time.
2-3 My 8-year-old kids don’t know who is doing what for Parnusah – To me it’s kind of funny for someone to claim that as an 8-year-old he sought the support of a marriage counselor.
4) He claimed that by eight years old sperm came out, he was 100% sure about this and said it had a very distinct smell.
4-1 I spoke to a pediatrician who said it’s not possible. Then I spoke to a pediatric urologist who said it is extremely rare.
5) When asked to list all the children that were living in the house at that time, he did not remember them. It’s absurd how he didn’t know the family names. If he was there daily….?
6) He didn’t mention any any change in house after killing of Goldy, in the time that there was significant construction and change in the house.
7) He didn’t describe the abuse to no therapist. He started describing the abuse AFTER he met the activist. This reveals that there was activists help involved.
8) The reputation Mr. Taubenfeld is excellent. No other rumors at all. He continues to teach grooms before marriage, and no one in the community is having a problem with that.
9) The dates claimed and the details are like a Novel. No simple times, all holy or extreme. No simple abuse, everything all the way. Sep 11. Yum Kipper. Purim. Chizuk to come fwd from a movie (that did not even existed at the time)
10) No grooming involved. There was an expert in court stating clearly that usually there is grooming involved.
11) No teacher alertness, throughout the years, although he went to special school that should look out. He did not go to a New Square school. Ohr Vedaas would have reported had they heard it, or suspected.
12) He lied that he was by Taubenfeld steady, as those people who sounded very credible testified and even had pictures to show.
13) He admitted that he said he will make millions out of this. Here is a clue about the Motive.
14) He said he bought books with the at least $12000. The store owner testified that he did not buy a single book. The fact that he lied what he did with the money showed he had no money.
15) He lied about the release of the movie and even the killing of bin laden was actually after he went to the police. He argued it was before….
16) The fact that he didn’t describe the house well at all leads rather to think that the last time he even played inside was when he was very young… Not at age 13, rather at age 10, after Goldy was killed.
17) Even according to Lybe the room had no lock. So he abused him in a house full of people and didn’t even bother locking the room? How much sense does that make?
18) Mr. Taubenfeld was not at home for much of 2003 when Lybe said it happened almost every day!
The cause of fighting abuse does not justify comparing a person who was found not guilty by the judge and whoever was in court without an agenda was convinced on his innocence- comparing him to OJ is an Avlah Gadulah.
While we fight sexual abuse in our community, let us STOP ABUSING Mr. Taubenfeld who is apparently an innocent man who went through hell!
I have addressed many of the points you are raising in my responses to others. I will look into the new points you raise. I do not agree that a convicing case was made that he is innocent though it is possible that the trial did not make a good enough case to convict “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
WHAT ONE REMEMBERS
I want to comment on things people are saying about what Laiby should have remembered. I don’t know the truth in this case and I was not at the trial. But let me share some things about what I remember about something else.
When I was in BY HS I was in therapy for two years for some problems with school and with my family.
I went almost every week. I remember the face of the therapist and the hair and the usual color of the clothing. I remember an usual tissue box and the route I took to get there. I remember a window I could see from my chair. I remember her sitting a few feet away and an unusual notebook she used that had a hinge on the ttop.
i do not remember the numnber of windows. I do not remember the art on the wall. i do not remember the furniture even the chair I sat on, other than it had arms. I do not remember the color of the walls, whether there were curtains or shades on the windows, where the door was in the room, and what was on the floor. I remember the address but not how the front of the building looked. There so many details I cannot remember. Yet I remember every time afterwards, even when I was late, I would stop at a store for a soda.
If for some reason, I had to testify, I would have to admit not remembering all sorts of things. But I definitely was there almost every week. I do remember how she started off the first time explaining why I was there, but I do not remember many of the tings either of us said.
this was thereapy which was helpful to me. I do not know what i would remember if I was being traumatized each time.
And I was older than Leiby during the period considered in the trial. I am just saying that certain kinds of memory issues don’t prove lying. Not saying they prove he was telling the truth. Just saying it does not prove anything.
But Laiby said “he did remember”. Had he said that he doesn’t remember you’d been right. Could you imagine remembering that the room had beds instead of sofas or vice versa. Laiby just remembered everything. And said that he’s hundred percent positive. And was just wrong.
No one pointed to the fact that he didn’t remember. The point is that he said facts that were just lies and false.
Laiby was quite clear about remembering some thing and not noticing or remembering other things. Your certainty that he is lying is based on testimony of defense witnesses. But as I have pointed out, at least some of them perjured themselves and others may have. They certainly were motivated to protect Taubenfeld. They were nogeiah bidavar and a number of them would have been excluded as witnesses by a beis din for that reason. So it gets circular. You know they are lying because Taubenfeld’s witnesses said so, etc. If you have a full trasncript, I would be glad to post a link to it (as long as it is legal and does not violate any commercial rights of the transcription service. I would welcome an open discussion of the case. However, your arguments about lying are not persuasive.
Dear Readers,
I think I’ve exhausted for now, and will refrain from writing on this topic unless something new arises. I.E. Yerachmiel gets the transcript etc.
I would like to end with a compliment on Yechiels work in general to help protect victims, and bring on change on our community. I think that Yerachmiels strong desire to protect children, tilts him more to consider guilty. Or in the words of Chaza”l “אהבה מקלקלת את השורה”.
We both agree that the guilt here is in question. Yerachmiel didn’t attend trial while I did. Yerachmiel admits and would love to see more.
We only differ on the conclusion. While I believe (and the same applies to several other neutral onlookers I spoke to) that Taubenfeld is innocent beyond reasonable doubt, Yerachmiel has difficulties reaching such a conclusion on the limited info he has. I reserve the right to believe he would reach the same conclusion as myself had he attended trial fully, or read the transcripts.
Keep up your work, Yerachmiel!
ודע כי על כל אלה יביאך ה’ אלקיך במשפט
Make sure not to ruin innocent people’s lives on your way to your cause!
I WAS AT THE TRIAL and can’t agree more with you. Here is a link to MY comments written DURING the trial predicting a NOT GUILTY verdict PRIOR to the judges official acquittal. http://forward.com/news/312224/years-of-child-sex-abuse-started-on-september-11/ It’s worth reading. Touching on some additional points.
From the very beginning of your reactions you regarded anyone not convinced of Taubenfeld’s innocence as a a mindless hater. In your first comment by “I was at the trail [sic]” you wrote:
Now a message to,
“ALL Jew haters:
ALL Orthodox Jew haters:
ALL Hasidic Jew haters:
ALL Self hating Jews:
All so called child advocates:
All so called child protectors:…”
You took the position that anyone who believed Taubenfeld, a man indicted by the DA, could only have been charged and had the charge believed because of antisemitism.
I call you a bigger antisemite if you would rather risk children being raped than even consider the possibility that any accusation could be true. Are you mamash saying there can be no chsash (suspicion) unless one hates Jews and Hasidim. Are you accusing me of that? If so, spit it out.
Sorry! But NO! This was not written the very beginning of my reactions to the trial. It was the last comment (out of close to TEN) I wrote after hearing the closing arguments from both sides, before the verdict and PREDICTING AN ACQUITTAL! And yes anyone sitting through the trial and wanted otherwise IS A HATER or DUMB AS A WALL! No, this is not just beyond reasonable doubt.
ALL the so called child protectors/advocates were not even shocked at the verdict, it was expected.
I’ll even share with you a little secret. The DA also knew what’s coming, and told the accuser the night before the verdict, THAT HE SHOULD NOT SHOW UP AT THE VERDICT! They knew what’s coming.
Now I’ll just share with all of you my opinion why I think the DA decided to take this case(against the opinions of his own investigators). We all know elections are coming up, and he did not want to face the fire of critique that he stands with the Orthodox Bloc Vote so he took a case against them. But he couldn’t afford to lose the Bloc either so he chose one, that he was sure there will be an acquittal. This hypothesis also explains why the DA did not even offer a deal, an unheard of, unprecedented move. Cause he wanted to try a case that will end with an ACQUITAL! All other ADA’s that came in to watch during the trial sat together with the spectators to hide their official identity, and did not want to associate with the ADA Mr Moore as they usually do at other trials. Poor Mr Moore (ADA) had to do the dirty work for his boss. He deserves and went on vacation.
This hypothesis is much better than saying the judge was paid off. This at least makes some sense.
I cannot evaluate all of your claimed “facts.” But is ridiculous to say the other ADAs sat apart from Mr. Moore. By law, on the actual team for each of the parties sits up front.
Thru out the trial, not a SINGLE person sat at the prosecutor’s table besides ADA Mr. Moore. (including other ADA’s and even the DA Mr. Zugebie himself) (this should be a simple one to verify).
At this point, I’m amazed how these so called child activists/protectors are still arguing (especially the ones that weren’t even at the trial), when simple laymen agree to his innocence just by reading the reports from people that were spectators at the trial. UNBELEIVABLE!!
Now I’ll reiterate, ALL that are claiming guilt at this case, are ruining all the progress made over the years for the benefit of protecting children. You’ll accomplish much more by stepping aside and to say “you know what here we had a false accusation” and keep promoting child safety. Otherwise you’ll lose ALL you’re credibility and you’ll accomplish NOTHING!!
Only the prosecutors of a particular case sit at the prosecutor’s table. That is how it is done in court.
R Kohen, I know nothing about the case and I was not at the trial. but if you read the comments of the people who attended the trial their claim is not that the boy did not remember room their claim is that he did remembered a room the did not existed at the time and that he was also scheduled with other people at the same time as well as other fact that the boy stated that was contradicted.
That has nothing to do with someone not being able to remember some details from years ago. they don’t blame him for forgetting things they are having a problem with him fabricating facts that could not exist at the time.
You are stating as proven facts things claimed by defense witnesses. Does that not show you as biased. Can’t you at least say, “According to Taubenfeld’s supported who testified for him at the trial….” Once you say that, we have a sofek about Taubenfeld’s guilt or the accuracy about Laiby’s testimony. That you don’t say that, and may not even consider that, makes me question the value of your claims and conclusions.
“Attacking the messenger of unpleasant truths is a disgrace to Yiddishkeit. Many also attacked the neviim. We side with the messages of the neviim not with those who attacked them. You are who you are. But attacking the messenger is a disgrace to yiddishkeit. It is a flight from the emes.”
Oh please!
The guy is an anti social nut, borderline anti semite and you compare him to the Prophets?
He is the furthest thing from “emes”, he picks up all the dirt he can about frum jews and posts it, he generalizes about all Chareidim and writes terrible stories attacking Israel, and you call that “emes”?
Harry Maryles is an honest man,I don;t agree with him all the time, but his criticism is constructive.
The failed one, btw, hardly reports any of the scandals amongst the Conservative and Reform.That’s “emes”?
Please
You are confusing tone and attitude with facts. And I agree, it is very rare for him to write anything positive about Haredim. But the question is whether he is accurate. Just to use a different example, take Hamodiah. They are a propaganda vehicle for the Haredi community. they censor out most negative news about charedim. Sex abuse scandals are never reported. Yet I will credit them with honesty. The facts they report are true, even if they omit many other facts. This is in contrast to some of the reporting in Yated, Matzav, Yeshiva World and the shmattes passing for Satmar newspapers, the Blatt and the Yid. Reading Hamodiah, I assume the facts are true, but I remain alert to the fact that many other true facts were omitted, including important facts to the story. Similarly, I would suggest you approach Shmarya Rosenberg’s output the same way. Yes feel offended by him, yes expect him to omit facts that make the community look better. Yes, question his analysis and interpretation. But his ratio of truth to mistakes in his facts is high. To the best of my knowledge, he truly tries hard to be accurate about his facts, and his few inaccuracies are errors which he corrects usually, as he becomes aware of them.
Those of us who care about the truth have to be willing to take it from wherever it comes. Right now, unpleasant truths are almost always censored by the Haredi media. If you reject nasty outside sources (that are factually accurate) you will deprive yourself of truths and remain sealed in a cocoon of self congratulatory, or even paranoid, ignorance. If the Haredi world does not like Shmarya Rosenberg’s reporting, let it do it’s own reporting, complete with all the relevant facts. But in the meantime….
Most of the points I mentioned are things I heard from Lybe (No lock, sperm, not knowing the children,movie,dates claimed, grooming and much more ) Or proven by images (House, him being with the care takers) By Passport (Days he was not here) and by witnesses who came across very credible.
According to you, any person from Skver who is being accused is assumed guilty? If that is the case, I would disagree with Josh who said “in the words of Chaza”l “אהבה מקלקלת את השורה”. And I would feel that we are talking about Hate that is ” מקלקלת את השורה”
A person who was accused with something, 1 story – 1 witness, DA who said other DA offices would not bring the case, the testimony was not credible, activists involved in the case from day 1, Judge found him not guilty. Why in the world should someone continue to think he is probably guilty. I hope it is not because of hate to an entire community that we can’t see the truth regarding one man.
Our community so desperately needs real genuine and honest activist who will fight for the cause while not causing innocent people tremendous pain.
Some of the activists tweeted: “Satan won this round, the losers are the children of Rockland.”
How in the world can we say “Satan won this round” if the person is not guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, especially here where according to anything I watched and listened there is no reason whatsoever to think he is guilty.
“The losers are the children of Rockland.” Indeed, because the DA is prosecuting the wrong guys! They should bring charges against the very well known abusers.
We need better activists!
Who are the “Very well know abusers” you feel we should focus on.
Not every accused person is necessarily guilty. But in fact most are for reasons I laid out earlier why false charges are very unlikely and DAs or very shy of weak cases. In fact they violate two rules if the believe someone is not guilty. They are not allowed to knowing prosecute someone that they believe is innocent. Moreover, even if they believe someone is guilty it is a violation of law and legal ethics for them to prosecute someone for whom they do not believe they have evidence sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course a judge or jury can disagree. But if it can be proven that they know they did not have good enough evidence to plausibly establish guilt they can lose their license to practice law, and suffer other consequences. Do DA’s make mistakes. Of course, just like Drs, Accountants and rabbis. But certain kinds of mistakes are rare.
You also have no idea how many allegations I do not publicize. Not because I am necessarily convinced of innocence. But because I do not have convincing enough information for me to publicly say someone is guilty or probably guilty.
One last point- I have never had a single allegation that was not complained about with all sort of definite proof that the defendant was 100% innocent, a victim of a bilbul, a tzadik, etc and the DA was a rasha or stupid or bought off, etc. Not one. So your outrage is not proof. As I have said before I will continue to look at facts and information and will make further statements as I know more.
But if you choose to invalidate me for my uncertainty in one case, so be it. OTOH I am interested in your at least saying who you do trust. The Skverer Rebbe? The Vaad of Skver? who?
also, even if you think i am unfair, you said there are “well know other molesters I should go after.” Are you just bluffing or will you say who those are. Are you only interested in asserting the innocence of Taubenfeld or are you interested in dealing with molesters. Like they say, put up some names or don’t make vague claims.
Jonah.
please, don’t just throw out random accusations against unknown alleged molesters. It appears that you might have a connection to the abuse pipeline. PLEASE do not keep such vital information out of the public square.
He who saves one life…….Jonah, anyway, please, what is your motivation here? tsedek, tsedek, for one innocent kivyachol, abuser, or protecting current and future children As they say in the secular world, put up or shut up. Who, pray tell, are these well known molesters whom the CSA advocates, as well as the criminal justice system have ignored???.
Please demonstrate your motivation, Jonah.
I haven’t added to this thread until now, because I felt I couldn’t add anything significant to what Yerachmiel himself posted.
I do want to call attention, though, to a couple of curious facts about the statements being posted here in Taubenfeld’s defense.
First, while the defenders are emphatic about the injustice of blaming all Hasidim (or haredim, or Orthodox Jews) for the faults of some, they seem quite comfortable attacking “the activists” as a group (names are seldom used), with or without evidence of any particular wrongdoing, apparently on the theory that one acquittal discredits a whole movement of consciousness-raising and victim support. One must wonder how serious they are about their moral stance with respect to generalizing the sins of Orthodox Jews.
Second, while they insist — correctly — on the presumption of innocence for a defendant accused but not convicted of a crime, they are quite ready to smear the accuser, who has never been charged, let alone convicted of any kind of wrongdoing. Again, such inconsistency calls into question the seriousness of their argument.
An acquittal may well have been justified in this case. It’s always difficult to second-guess someone else’s “reasonable doubt” (the legal standard) about guilt in a particular prosecution. But intemperate attacks on an alleged victim, or on those who support such people, or on critics of a well-known system of abuse cover-ups and victim intimidation, are certainly uncalled for. And to my mind such attacks are inescapably part of the problem — even when paired with a sincere defense of an unsuccessfully accused abuser.
You write:
‘Mutty Weiss went to the Rebbe when he was about 18 and still wearing the levush. His yechidus was going well and the Rebbe was warm and sympathetic as he shared difficulties in his life UNTIL he said he was raped by his rebbe in yeshiva (8th grade iirc). At that point the Rebbe abrubptly shouted “varf die shaygetz arois” (throw out this disgusting non-religious bum). And he was instantly, bodily thrown out of the room and the building.’
Did you hear this from anyone other than Mutty Weiss himself? Did you ever get to hear the other side of the story?
The Rebbe, Dovid Twersky does not issue public statements. Why disbelieve Mutty Weiss. Do people, in your imagination, actually enjoy publicly saying they were raped. Are you meshugah?
He left Skver and probably moved away at least to a degree from charedihood, so he has 2 choices, either to say that he was in the wrong or to say Skver was in the wrong. So he chose the latter. You can be sure that whatever happened, in anything, in yechidus withthe Skverer rebbe, it would be in Mutty’s interest to exxagerate how badly he was treated. The Skverer Rebbe didn’t say “varf die shaygetz arois” just because Mutty respectfully asked for help saying that his rebbee raped him. It isn’t reasonable to believe that it happened just that way as he describes it.
You have not a shred of information of what happened. Say what you will about Mutty, unlike you, he knows the truth. But in your automatic defense of the Rebbe and Skver you feel a need to say that ANY criticism is a fabrication. Your response is a perfect illustration of why it is so hard for anyone in Skver to come forward to say, “I was raped.”
You are right that i don’t know what happened and I don’t claim to know. But I know that you have heard one side of a story and on the basis of that make absolute statements. This defies logic, morality and justice.
On the balance, the story seems credible. And everyone knows that Skver believes in not having their sex offenders tried by the civil courts. The head of the Skver vaad said as much in an interview with Michael Orbach of the Jewish Star.
Credible that the Rebbe, or for that matter anyone, heard this person’s pain as he respectfully told his sad story and, instead of commiserating, just said “varf die shaygetz arois” ?! That’s credible?! Only if you’re so full of hatred that שנאה מקלקלת את השורה and you’re automatically willing and actually wanting to believe the very worst.
Credible to me because of other such stories about this rebbe and the unfortunate tendency and pattern of these sorts of responses many other places in the frum world. You are so fixated are the godliness of the rebbe that any evidence to the contrary is to you, automatically false. But if your heilige rebbe is such a tzadik, one so filled with compassion, why did he never order public tehillim for Rottenberg when he was critically ill with 3rd degree burns on over 50% of his body. Not all chasidim are overflowing with chesed.
Lies, half truths and twisting if the facts.
You begin with circular reasoning, that this is credible because of other such stories, but those other stories are like this one, only credible because שנאה מקלקלת את השורה and you’re automatically willing and actually wanting to believe the very worst.
You then twist my words by saying ‘But if your heilige rebbe is such a tzadik…’, which I didn’t claim to be so because I don’t know the Skverer Rebbe. I would find such a story non credible with just about anyone, as I said. So then when you begin to make arguments that he isn’t a tzaddik as if that proves something. Is that your complaint against him, that he isn’t a tzadik? It seems that are saying worse things than that about him.
Then you mention Rottenberg. This is the same circular reasoning, and also a lie. Rottenberg was an enemy of Skver way before the burn. I’m not discussing whether a ‘Tzadik’ should say Tehilim anyway, even for an enemy, but many normal and even fine people wouldn’t. Answer this honestly. Don’t you think that in most communities, if a person antagonizes the community at large, then although most members of the community will just silently swallow, there is likely to be someone with less self control who might get violent. But you make it sound like only in Skver could such a thing happen.
Gott in himmel, you are mamash excusing retzichah. Show me another kehillah which does not shudder and scream rasha about someone who lights a fire to a home where people are sleeping. Thank you for exposing the shkotzim and skver and the thuggish mentality. I understand machlokes, but have you forgotten hakol, kol yaakov, vihayidaim, yidei esav. I write this way to reduce the chillul hashem from others reading this. Shame on you.
Oh, so if you don’t scream in pain when a Yid is hurt, even an enemy, then it is yadayim yedai aisov. So that’s your complaint. So what were you like after the murder of Menachem Stark? We all remember that. And he wasn’t your enemy, or was he because every Satmarer is your enemy and probably every charedi.
You don’t see yourself because a person is biased about himself, but others who read your blog see you as a hater of charedi Jews, and if you can’t even see it a little bit after it is brought to light, then you are a hypocrite.
Oh please stop rambling, being paranoid, and playing the pity card because I have problem with shkotzing lighting up yidden. Zei mir moichel. As for Stark, here is what I wrote. I leave it to my readers to decide whether or not I am mensch and an ish emes. I leave it to you to stew in your farbissene defense.
There’s another Mutty Weiss? The only one I know of wasn’t from skver and he was a mondrowitz casualty.
Yes, But I am talking about the fellow who grew up in Skver, and was the partner of Deb Tambor who also goes as Abe Weiss. The other one uses the name Mark Weiss.
It does not cost thousands of dollars to get trial transcripts if you go to the Rockland County office that archives them. They only charge a small fee per page.